Genealogy Chat

My great aunt Lina Schwab was born 30.12.1874 in Nuvilly, canton Fribourg, Switzerland. On 10 September 1904 she married Henry Underwood in Zurich Switzerland. Henry Underwood was born 10 June 1880 at 50 Drummond Crescent, Somers Town, St Pancras, County of Middlesex. His parents are James Underwood and Susan Jane nee Bedford. James is a pianoforte maker. When he marries Henry is recorded as being a salesman. Henry and Lina live in London between 1905 and 1917. In the mid 1920s to early 1930 they live in Paris. From family correspondence I have established that they have one child called Teddy (short for Edouard or Edward). By 1936 they appear to be divorced. I am looking for descendants of Henry and Teddy Underwood.

Would be most grateful for any information on Henry and Lina's son and his descendants.

If you use the search option at the top right of the screen and then click on "search all member trees" you will find that there are a few members who have Henry Underwood in their trees. You can click on their names and send a private message to them direct.

Kath. x

Thanks Kath.

Been using GenesReunited since 2006 and gone up to 1550 on my husband's side of the family. Have only recently got information regarding my great aunt Lina Schwab. My post is really a long shot to see if anybody knows of or is related to Henry Underwood's family here in the UK. I found Henry and Lina in the 1910 Census in London. I know from my grandfather's letters to an uncle of mine that Lina lived in Paris and appears to have divorced in 1936. A postcard from Lina addressed to my grandfather (her brother) dates 1932 and was sent from Paris. I have been doing extensive research in Switzerland (my home country) but so far without much luck.

But thanks for your reply.
Marianne

1911 24,Countess Rd Kentish town
Jane Underwood widow
George 34 single
Henry 27 pianoforte maker died 1944

Henry married 16/6/1912 age 29 to Queenie Beauttie lilly.

Is this another Henry with a dad James a Pianoforte maker!!

James Underwood 1846-1902
Susan Jane Underwood died 1925 probate to Henry Underwood instrument maker.

This family was at 50,Drummond street in 1881 but no Henry.
Henry Underwood 1880 died 1880
henry Underwood A/M/J 1883 Pancras 1b 102

I can't find a Lina and Henry Underwood in London 1911
Please could you post the one you have?

Maryb.

What about this 1911?

27 Regent Square W C, St Pancras, London, England
Henry Underwood-Wise Head Married Male Clerk Dental Business 30 1881 London St Pancras
Lucy Underwood-Wise Wife Married Female - 29 1882 Switzerland
Alfred Edward Underwood-Wise Son - Male - 3 1908 London Camberwell

married 7 years - one child born

On the off-chance the above is the correct family, this is the birth reg - its also indexed under Wise

Name: Alfred E Underwood-wise
Registration Year: 1907
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Camberwell
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 800

Not sure which of the following is correct (Overseas marriages don't seem to give the spouses name if not a British national). Just trying to clarify his name:

GRO Consular Marriages (1849-1965)

First name(s) WILLIAM HENRY
Last name UNDERWOOD
Year range 1901-1905
Marriage place GENEVA
Country SWITZERLAND
Record Source GRO Consular Marriages (1849-1965)
Volume 11
Page 1757
Record set British nationals married overseas 1818-2005

First name(s) HENRI
Last name UNDERWOOD
Year range 1901-1905
Marriage place ZURICH
Country SWITZERLAND
Record Source GRO Consular Marriages (1849-1965)
Volume 11
Page 1899
Record set British nationals married overseas 1818-2005

As Mary says above, there is no Henry Underwood at 50 Drummond Crescent on the 1881 census:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

50, Drummond Crescent, St Pancras, Pancras, London, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place

James Underwood Head Married Male 35 1846 Pianoforte Filler Up St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Jane Underwood Wife Married Female 36 1845 - St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Charles Underwood Son Single Male 10 1871 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Rose Underwood Daughter Single Female 8 1873 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Arthur Underwood Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England
George Underwood Son Single Male 4 1877 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England

_____________________________________________________________________

Looks like Henry wasn't born until later:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

50 Drummond Crescent, St Pancras, Pancras, London, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place

James Underwood Head Married Male 45 1846 Piano Forte Fitter St Pancras, Middlesex, England Transcription
Jane Underwood Wife Married Female 46 1845 - St Pancras, Middlesex, England Transcription
Arthur Underwood Son - Male 16 1875 Piano Forte Makers Apprentice St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Rosa Underwood Daughter Single Female 18 1873 Tailoress St Pancras, Middlesex, England
George Underwood Son - Male 14 1877 Telegraph Messenger St Pancras, Middlesex, England
*** Henry Underwood Son - Male 8 1883 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England
William Underwood Son - Male 5 1886 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England
James Underwood Uncle Single Male 72 1819 Living On Own Means St Pancras, Middlesex, England

It appears that James' father Henry is living at no 49

His parents weren't in a rush to get Henry baptised:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Henry Underwood
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 28 Jan 1895
Father's name: James Underwood - pianoforte maker
Mother's name: Jane Underwood
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

Henry's date of birth given as 13 May 1883. Address 50 Drummond Crescent.

I'd say there is no doubt that this is the marriage of the above Henry - it appears brother George is a witness:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/19895163

So, he was either a bigamist or the family information that Marianne has needs to be verified.

Looking at the Swiss marriages I posted above, I'm wondering about this birth:

Births Sep 1880
UNDERWOOD Henri Pancras 1b 93

Corresponding baptism:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Henri Underwood
Record Type: Birth
Estimated Birth Date: 16 Jun 1880
Mother's name: Martha Underwood - a nurse
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

No father named. Address was 82 DRUMMOND STREET

Appears to be a workhouse birth. There are also the following workhouse births to a single woman Martha Underwood:

Adelaide b 13 Aug 1879
William b 3 Dec 1881

I really think DET is onto something with Henry Underwood-Wise. So much fits and I strongly suspect that the son Alfred EDWARD is Teddy.

There's no trace of this man (Henry Underwood-Wise) before the 1911 census but quite a bit afterwards.

Have just been looking at his medal card on Ancestry:

Name: Henry Wise
Regiment or Corps: Royal Fusiliers, Labour Corps
Regimental Number: E/274, E/274

The image of the card gives his full name as Henry Underwood Wise. He was a temporary Lieutenant in the Labour Corps. He got the 1915 Star, Victory & British War medals.

It's the contact addresses on the reverse of the card which are interesting (these would have been circa 1921 when medals were issued):

17 Cloth Street, London

Cox & Co, Rue Suiss?? le Grande, PARIS (Cox & Co being the army officers banking agents)

c/o Mme Jollit, Rue De Chaneltes??, Rouen, France

Just too much of a coincidence with the French connections.

Henry Underwood Wise is living 84 Osnaburgh Street, Regent's Park in 1923 (no one else listed at that address). In the 1930s he's in Hackney with a Rose Hetty Wise.

He appears to have died 1946, registered Edmonton

Part of a PM from Marianne
..............................................
....my great aunt married a Henry Underwood from Pancras Middlesex in 1904 in Zurich - I have a copy of their marriage certificate giving the name of Henry's father as James Underwood a pianoforte maker

From family correspondence I managed to ascertain Lina and Henry residence in London :
1906 = 74 Aldersgate, London EC
1910 = 27 Regent Sq, London WC
1913 = East Dulwich, London SE

....genealogy research in Switzerland is far mor difficult than in the UK. There is absolutely nothing online in Switzerland and one has to physically visit county archives to find any information.
[Marianne has an insight into Swiss records]

Thanks for your informations. It's probably a key link for me to keep in mind in the future. It's likely to be part of my Underwood family.
............

Marianne - when we try to assist, we tend to go backwards to go forwards. We've been trying to find a record of Teddy/Edouard/ Edward's birth if it happened in the UK.

As you have addresses from family correspondence, perhaps they were out of the country on census night? Have you any idea when their son was born?

Have you considered researching for births in France or even Switzerland in the family's Canton if she may have returned there for her confinement?

WW2 resulted in mass refugee migration - have you been able to find out where she went before/when war broke out? Would Teddy have travelled with her, or would he have joined the Forces? Its difficult to advise without knowning when he was born.

If you are trying to find his descendents, assuming he had any, the best thing to do is to search all members trees for his name and those of parents.

Have also exchanged messages with Marianne. She's away at the moment but will endeavour to post marriage certificate info and census details when she returns.

But, pending the confirmation, it does look like the 1911 census at 27 Regent Square is correct but I'm 99% sure that the man on that census isn't the son of James. The 1912 marriage that I posted a link to above can not be dismissed. Also, that Henry Underwood had children with Queenie. He was born 1883, not 1880.

Just copying from earlier

1911 census
27 Regent Square W C, St Pancras, London, England
Henry Underwood-Wise Head Married Male Clerk Dental Business 30 1881 London St Pancras
Lucy Underwood-Wise Wife Married Female - 29 1882 Switzerland
Alfred Edward Underwood-Wise Son - Male - 3 1908 London Camberwell

married 7 years - one child born

Marianne’s correspondence
1910 = 27 Regent Sq, London WC

Scanning through the images, there seem to be 9 households at the same address, most occupying just one room. Might it have been a boarding house?

If it’s not them, then surely there must be some sort of family connection.

THE METROPOLITAN AND ST JOHN S

“... taken to St Mary’s Hospital. was told that on Friday last she had thrown herself out of one of the hospital windows. Martha Underwood stated that she was nurse in the female accident ward at St Mary’s Hospital. On Friday evening deceased was missed out ...”

18 March 1871 - Marylebone Mercury - London, London, England

(wondered about above MC, seeing Nurse!, goes with below, if relating with anything!)


1871 (Find My Past)
First name(s) Martha
Last name Underwood (Where Born, Harrow on the Hill)
Relationship Nurse (Dist. Nurse)
Gender Female (Unmarried)
Age 26
Birth year 1845
Street St Mary Hospital, Cambridge Place, Paddington
Parish Paddington
Town London
County London, Middlesex
Registration district Kensington
Archive reference RG10
Piece number 28
Folio 49
Page 2

Chris :)

(no, perhaps 'ignore'!)

1851 (Find My Past)
John Underwood Head - Male 41 1810 Smith & Farmer Not Known
Elizabeth Underwood Wife - Female 40 1811 Chairwoman Middlesex, England
George Underwood Son - Male 12 1839 Agricultural Labourer Harrow, Middlesex, England
Henry Underwood Son - Male 11 1840 Agricultural Labourer Harrow, Middlesex, England
Martha Underwood Daughter - Female 6 1845 - Middlesex, England
House name Alperton
Parish Harrow
County Middlesex
Registration district Hendon
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 1700
Folio 154
Page 9

Can we pleasei all concentrate on LINA SCHWAB marrying Henry Underwood in 1904 in Zurich. All I know from family correspondence is that they had a son "TeddY" which could be short for Edward (English) or Edouard (French -w hich was my great aunt's first language). I don't know where the name Wise comes from, but I don't think it has any thing to do with my family.

Marianne - we ARE concentrating on Lina Schwab and Henry Underwood but as DET said earlier we need to go backwards in order to come forwards.

You say WISE doesn't have anything to do with your family yet in a message to DET you said that in 1910 your Underwoods were at 27 Regent Square - that is an exact match for Henry Underwood-WISE on the 1911 census. The same man who has Paris and Rouen addresses on his military medal records.

You said in your opening post that Henry Underwood was born 10 June 1880 at 50 Drummond Street and was the son of James Underwood, a pianoforte maker. Yes, James Underwood DID have a son Henry (who later married Queenie Beatrice Lilly in 1912) but that Henry was born 13 May 1883 and can be tracked through census and other records until his death in 1944.

The Henri Underwood (note spelling - same as in the Swiss marriage record) who was born in June 1880 at Drummond STREET was the son of a Martha Underwood. His birth date was the 16 June 1880 but very very often a 6 can be mis-transcribed as a 0.

Henry/Henri Underwood-Wise had a son Alfred Edward born 1907, many people are known by their middle names (as indeed I am). The abbreviations for Edward are (amongst others) Ed, Eddie, Ted and TEDDY (or TEDDIE).

Obviously you have records that we don't but the information that I have found I can back up with records and images of documents.

Sincerely, we would love to be able to connect you to descendants of Teddy Underwood but until we're 100% sure of the back history we won't send you on a wild goose chase.

We could compare Henry's signature on both wedding records if it could be posted.
A strange one this is, I have been looking to see if Martha Underwood married a Mr Wise but I haven't found anything.

Does it make any difference that Lucy on 1911 census at 27,Regent Square was a British Subject by parentage and born @ 1881 not 1874.


Maryb.

Re: Lina Schwab and Henry Underwood

Good evening to all the contributors to this "thread"

I probably need to apologize for being stubborn but below are the exact details I have about my great aunt and her husband Henry Underwood - some of which I only discovered this afternoon.

According to the marriage record I received from Switzerland Henry Underwood married my great-aunt LINA Schwab on 10 September 1904 in Zurich. The record says that Henry was born 16 June 1880 in London, the son of James (deceased). Henry is a tradesman and single. - Lina was born on 30 December 1874 in Nuvilly, canton Fribourg in Switzerland.

As this was a civil wedding they both would have had to provide proof of identity. I apologise for misleading you, insofar as I have an extract of the marriage entry into the family records of my hometown in Switzerland and not the actual marriage certificate. But I will try and obtain one in the near future in the hope of clarifying dates and comparing signatures as well as perhaps disclosing who their witnesses were.

Based on this records information I searched the BMD website and obtained a copy of Henry Underwood son of James, born in 1880; however, the date of birth differs - here Henry is born on 10th April not 16 June at 50 Drummond Crescent. The name of his mother is Susan Jane Underwood nee Bedford.

I then searched the Census records of 1881, (where he does not appear, but could mean he was elsewhere on the day of census with other family members) but in 1891. in the 1901 census Henry lives with his parents in Somers Town, St Pancras, Middlesex together with his brothers Arthur, George and William and sister Rosa. In 1911 Henry appears alone with his mother Jane Underwood (aged 66 - a widow) and his brother George (aged 34)

Going by correspondence sent to my grandfather, Henry and Lina lived in London at the following addresses.
1906 = 74 Aldersgate, London EC - signed Harry, Lina
1910 = 27 Regent Sq, London WC - signed Harry, Lina
1913 = East Dulwich, London SE - signed Harry
incidentally Harry's french was perfect

In 1917 Lina sends my grandfather a postcard from Villeneuve (a small town on Lake Geneva) where she is on holiday with Harry (Henry) and Teddy who would probably have been about 9 or 10. They are staying with one of Lina's sister. The postcard is written and signed by Lina.

I have no further information about their whereabouts until the mid 1920s to 1936 when they or Lina are in Paris - this information is from diary entries of my uncle Robert Schwab (my father's brother who lived in Argenteuil, a district of Paris). Robert occasionally mentions meeting or speaking to his aunt Lina "in town", although there is no mention of Henry at those meetings and no details about what they talked about.

I'm currently in Paris staying with my cousin sifting through my uncle Robert's vast collection of diaries, postcards and letters. This afternoon we came across one very interesting and enlightening letter my grandfather wrote in August 1936 to his son Robert, in which he is expressing his distress at his sister Lina's impoverished situation and lamenting the fact that she did not listen to her sisters’ advice. I have no idea what the advice would have been, HOWEVER grandfather goes on to say and I quote “Your message saddens me but confirms what we discovered at the funeral of uncle Louis last December that Lina seems to live in abject poverty and is asking her sisters and other family members for help. Considering her HUSBAND IS LIVING IN AN IRREGULAR HOUSEHOLD Lina should get him to provide her with the necessary means to survive. She should contact the British Embassy in Paris for help as she is a British subject. She [Lina] should not expect her sisters and nephew to keep on subsidizing her financially” end of quote.

WOW it took my cousin and myself I by surprise and with shock I’ve come to realise this DOES confirm Henry’s double life if not perhaps even prove him committing bigamy!

It's quite possible that he "married" Queenie Beauttie Lilly in 1912 and have children with her?

So now I'm even more intrigued to find out what Henry was up to and where his son Teddy ended up. I'm sincerely hoping that the above details go some way to help in my quest.

Cheers everyone and thank you for all the hints and leads
Marianne