Genealogy Chat

TDOC is to be found in C1881 in the household of Daniel Chapman, his father and Rose his mother. Next to his entry is Eliza Chapman "daughter", but I think this is incorrect, she is entered as being born in Durham three years before Daniel & Rose were married. Not that that is necessarily a barrier, but

TDOC married Eliza Brighty in 1882, her father is recorded as John, a farmer (I think that's what the record says).

Brighty appears to be a Norfolk name and they are few and far between in Durham, I have not been able to find a likely candidate.

C1881 gives Eliza's yob as 1854.

Can anyone find evidence, please, which either confirms the Eliza in C1881 as Daniel's daughter or confirms her origins elsewhere please?

Thanks

Keith

for OUR information and help .............. .

1881 Census

Name: Daniel Chapman
Age: 47
Estimated birth year: abt 1834
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Rosa Chapman
Gender: Male
Where born: Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 1 Ravensdon St
Marital Status: Married

Occupation: Clerk
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Kennington First
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

Piece: 600
Folio: 136
Page Number: 37

Daniel Chapman 47
Rosa Chapman 50
Thomas Chapman 24 b.ca 1857, Twickenham, Middlesex, Son
Eliza Chapman 27 b.ca 1854, Durham, Daughter
Charlotte Chapman 55 b.ca 1826, Salisbury, Wiltshire
Charles Chapman 22
Frank Chapman 19
Rosa Chapman 16
Joseph Chapman 9
Nelly Chapman 8
Ada Chapman 6
Elizabeth Chapman 4

I presume this is Thomas' birth registration from Freebmd?

Births Dec 1857 (>99%)

Chapman Thomas Daniel Brentford 3a 49


and from the new GRO Index, which gives mother's maiden name

CHAPMAN, THOMAS DANIEL CLEMENTS
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 49

Thanks Sylvia.

Maybe I could add some negative information too: I have been unable to trace TDOC and his wife Eliza after C1881.

Charlotte is Daniel's sister.

Here's TDOC marriage:

England & Wales marriages 1837-2008 Transcription
Learn more

Print transcription View image
First name(s) THOMAS DANIEL
Last name CHAPMAN
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1882
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ THOMAS DANIEL CHAPMAN married one of these people
ELLEN HARRIS, ELIZA BRIGHTY
District ST. SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK
District number -
County London
Country England
Volume 1D
Page 161
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

and:

Name: Thomas Daniel Chapman <<< occupation railway clerk
Spouse: Eliza Brighty
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 19 Jul 1882
Parish: St George the Martyr
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Daniel Chapman <<< occupation: station master
Spouse Father: John Brighty <<< occupation farmer
Register Type: Parish Register

witnesses: Daniel Chapman, Rosa Chapman

Keith

Possible birth for Eliza
Record Image VIEW
Order a Birth Certificate for Eliza Chapman
Search for Eliza Chapman in the UK Census Collection
Search for Eliza Chapman in the London Times
Add Alternative Information
Report issue
Name: Eliza Chapman
Registration Year: 1854
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Teesdale
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 139

no Eliza Chapman mmn Clements OR Eliza Clements shwoing up on the new index

Yes, that looks right. Rose Oxley Clements was TDOC's mother and he was registered in Twickenham 1857. I hadn't seen the new GRO record, thank you for that.

Keith

Yes again. That's the Durham 1854 record I could find but I find it hard to believe: there are no known family connections to Durham, it's three years before Daniel's marriage in 1857, and there's no Eliza Chapman in Daniel's census record for 1861:

Name: Daniel Chapman
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Rosa Chapman
Gender: Male
Where born: St Edmunds, Wiltshire, England
Civil Parish: Overton
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image
Registration district: Whitchurch
Sub-registration district: Whitchurch
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 49
Piece: 712
Folio: 143
Page Number: 9
Household Members:
Name Age
Daniel Chapman 27 <<< station agent
Rosa Chapman 23
Thomas Chapman 3
Charles Chapman 2
Bella Tilbury 14

Not conclusive I grant, but it seems convincing to me.

Keith

??? this Eliza Chapman is on the Index

CHAPMAN, ELIZABETH JANE BELL
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 202

and ancestry has only 1 Eliza Chapman showing up from 1861 to 1891, and only the 1881 one is shown with Daniel and Rosa, the other 3 all show Eliza C as living in Durham. There is not one born in Durham living in Durham in 1881

for example

1861 Census

Name: Eliza Chapman
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: 1854
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Staindrop, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Staindrop
Ecclesiastical parish: Durham
Town: Staindrop
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Registration district: Teesdale
Sub-registration district: Staindrop

Mary Chapman 72
Jane Chapman 32 b.ca 1829, Copley, Durham
Mary Jane Chapman 11
Eliza Chapman 7
Sarah Ann Chapman 3
Thos Wm Chapman 1
Margaret Atkinson 63
Margaret Labourn 52


Jane Chapman then married John Richardson ....

Name: Elvia Chapman
[Eliza Chapman]
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Daughter-in-law
Gender: Female
Where born: Staindrop, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Staindrop
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Registration district: Teesdale
Sub-registration district: Staindrop

John Richardson 42
Jane Richardson 42
Jane Chapman 20 Daughter-in-law
Elvia Chapman 17 Daughter-in-law
Sarah Ann Chapman 13 Daughter-in-law
Thos Wm Chapman 9 Son-in-law
Frederick Chapman 7 Son-in-law
Edith A Richardson 5 Months
James H Chapman 7 Months
Colin Chapman 13 Nephew


No Eliza Chapman in Durham in 1881, but there is the one in London


'tis a mystery!!!

And there's no matching Eliza Brighty 1854 in the GRO records either!

This is probably the Eliza born to Jane Chapman ...... no mmn shows on the new Index if the birth is illegitimate (but also in a few other cases, so we do have to be careful!!) .........

CHAPMAN, ELIZA -
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in TEESDALE UNION Volume 10A Page 139


But there is also this one registered in Teesdale, born in 1855, with mmn Harwood

CHAPMAN, ELIZABETH HARWOOD
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in TEESDALE Volume 10A Page 146

Sylviain canada, I was just going to post the same as you

According to several ancestry trees, who may have copied from each other, and I haven't checked this ..............

Eliza Chapman, daughter of Jane, married James Caygill.

This is the proof offered by one of those trees, no image to look at though .

England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973

Name: Eliza Chapman
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Age: 19
Birth Date: 1852
Marriage Date: 23 Sep 1871
Marriage Place: Cockfield, Durham, England
Spouse: James Caygill
FHL Film Number: 1514582
Reference ID: rn 211 p106


and the 1881 census the tree owner references does seem to be this one....

Name Eliza Caygill
Age 27
Estimated Birth Year abt 1854
Relationship to Head Wife
Spouse James Caygill
Gender Female
Where born Staindrop, Durham, England
Civil parish Wolsingham
County/Island Durham
Country England
Street Address 18 Campbell St
Marital Status Married
Occupation Coal Miner Wife
Registration district Weardale

James Caygill 35
Eliza Caygill 27
James W. Caygill 11
Annie J. Caygill 8
Elizabeth Caygill 7
John George Caygill 3
Thos. Wm. Caygill

Sylvia ........

great minds and all that :-D

I'll pick this up again in the morning. As SylviaInCanada rightly says, 'tis a mystery.

I also find it puzzling that I can't find TDOC or his wife after the C1881 record.

Keith

going at it another way ...............


what do you know about Eliza Brighty?

Is this her in 1871?

1871 Census

Name: Eliza Brighty
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: John Brighty
Mother's name: Elizabeth Brighty
Gender: Female
Where born: Hockering, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Hockering
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: Mattishall

John Brighty 58 Farmer
Elizabeth Brighty 58
Clara Brighty 23
Eliza Brighty 20
Harry Brighty 10
Robert Webster 55

BRIGHTY, CLARA RAWLIN
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in MITFORD AND LAUNDITCH UNION Volume 13 Page 232


no mmn shown for Harry

BRIGHTY, HARRY LITTLEBOY -
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in MITFORD Volume 04B Page 264



BRIGHTY, ELIZA RAMM
GRO Reference: 1850 S Quarter in MITFORD AND LAUNDITCH Volume 13 Page 229



was John Brighty the village Lothario :-D :-D :-D

Eliza Brighty
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Eliza Brighty
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 10 Nov 1850
Baptism Place: Hockering, Norfolk, England
Father: John Brighty
Mother: Elizabeth Ramon
FHL Film Number: 1526670
Reference ID: p 63



Clara Brighty
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Clara Brighty
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 30 Apr 1848
Baptism Place: Hockering, Norfolk, England
Father: John Brighty
Mother: Elizabeth
FHL Film Number: 1526670
Reference ID: p 58


Harry is listed as John's grandson in the 1871 census

This looks like the Brighty family in 1851

1851 Census

Name: John Brighty
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1813
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Brighty
Gender: Male
Where born: Hockering, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Hockering
Ecclesiastical parish: Mitford
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: Shipdham

John Brighty 38 b.ca 1813, Hockering, Machineman
Elizabeth Brighty 39 b.ca 1812, Hockering
Margaret Brighty 19 b.ca 1832, Hockering
James Brighty 15 b.ca 1836
Robert Brighty 13 b.ca 1838
Elizabeth Brighty 8 b.ca 1843
Clara Brighty 3
Eliga Brighty 7 Mo
Suey Ramm 70 b.ca 1781, Foulsham, Norfolk, Mother-in-Law <<< name corrected to Lucy

Address:- Street



I think John Brighty has been "married" at least 3 times ...........

The children (James, Robert and Elizabeth) born after July 1 1837 are on the new Index as having no mmn, but there is a marriage for John Brighty to Elizabeth Brighty on Freereg2 but that takes place in 1834, after the birth of Margaret.

One of the times to be careful of the "no mmn means illegitimate" is when people with the same surname marry. I have it in my father's ancestors who lived in 3 small villages in Buckinghamshire, and cousin married cousin. The new Index appears to be taking same surname for baby and mother to mean illegitimate, but it is not always accurate.

BRIGHTY, ROBERT -
GRO Reference: 1838 M Quarter in OF THE MITFORD AND LAUNDITCH UNION Volume 13 Page 217

BRIGHTY, ELIZABETH - Order
GRO Reference: 1843 M Quarter in MITFORD AND LAUNDITCH UNION Volume 13 Page 244

Then we have the following ...........

BRIGHTY, CLARA RAWLIN
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in MITFORD AND LAUNDITCH UNION Volume 13 Page 232

BRIGHTY, ELIZA RAMM
GRO Reference: 1850 S Quarter in MITFORD AND LAUNDITCH Volume 13 Page 229

PLUS ............

BRIGHTY, JOHN RAMM
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in MITFORD AND LAUNDITCH Volume 04B Page 236



I'm digging!


as for not finding Thomas and Eliza after 1881 ....... could they have emigrated???????????

Harry Brighty
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Harry Brighty
Age: 2/12
Estimated birth year: 1861
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Hockering, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Hockering
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: Mattishall
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 51
Piece: 1240
Folio: 114
Page Number: 9
Household Members:
Name Age
John Brighty 50
Elizabeth Brighty 48
Margaret Brighty 27
Robert Brighty 23
Clara Brighty 13
Eliza Brighty 10
John Brighty 7
Harry Brighty 2/12