General Chat

Hi
I am researching a 3 x grandfather who I found from his son( Alexander 1878)marriage cert.
He has showed on a census as having married Elizabeth Allison in 1866 in Auckland. When asking for his marriage cert Im told that he married a lady called Mary Dent, which is not the case as none of the details on later census tally with further research. I have looked at all other site for marriage certs and can not find anything which says he married Elizabeth . Can anyone suggest where else I can look
Troubled
:-(

Can you post a record showing him living with an Elizabeth please? All the ones that come up on Ancestry show his wife to be a Mary A.

Is his son's year of birth a typo? If the following census 1891 is correct, he was born c 1888 rather than 1878

Alexander Summerhill
[Alexander Summerbell]
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Son
Father's name: Alexander Summerhill
Mother's name: Mary A Summerhill
Gender: Male
Where born: Spennymoor, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Tudhoe
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrews
Town: Spennymoor
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Registration district: Durham
ED, institution, or vessel: 42
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4101
Folio: 44
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
Alexander Summerhill 55
Mary A Summerhill 45 <<< father's wife
Thomas Summerhill 23 - father's son
Jane Summerhill 5 - father's daughter,
Alexander Summerhill 3 <<<

Susan says he is shown on a census to have married Elizabeth Allison. Do any of the censuses show the wife's maiden name?

Is this what you believe to be Alexander 1887's birth?

Alexander Summerbell
Registration Year: 1887
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Durham
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 349

The new free search on GRO shows his mother's maiden name

SUMMERBELL, ALEXANDER (mmn) DENT
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 349

This does confirm that his father married Mary A Dent.

Marriages Dec 1866 (>99%)
Allison Elizabeth Auckland 10a 265
Baxter Robert Auckland 10a 265
DENT Mary A Auckland 10a 265 <<<
Summerbell Alexander Auckland 10a 265 <<<

Its hard to tell from a marriage index prior to 1911 who married who. Its necessary to work forward to the next available census to try to work it out.

Could this be Auckland New Zealand not Bishop Auckland. There is nothing to say what country it is.


Although with a name like that it should be easy to find.

OK so the results are Britain it was just a thought re census having maiden names.

I'm assuming Susan used the incorrect term.

Assuming this is the Robert Baxter also shown on the same page of the marriage reference

1891
Robert Baxter
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Baxter
Gender: Male
Where born: Shelfanger, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Whitworth
Ecclesiastical parish: Spennymoor St Pauls
Town: Spennymoor
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Registration district: Auckland
ED, institution, or vessel: 36
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4073
Folio: 22
Page Number: 38
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Baxter 52
Elizabeth Baxter 48
Hannah J Baxter 21
Ethel Baxter 1
Isabella Whittington 7
...............
Daughter Hannah J Baxter's birth from freebmd

Births Sep 1869 (>99%)
Baxter Hannah Jane Auckland 10a 178

The same from the free search on GRO showing mmn
BAXTER, HANNAH JANE mmn ALLISON
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in AUCKLAND Volume 10A Page 178
............
Unless Susan can provide evidence to the contrary,
Elizabeth Allison m Robert Baxter
Alexander Summerbell m Mary A Dent

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1349432

(could above relate perhaps?)


http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/

(if anything on above)

Chris :)

23 July 1943 - Newcastle Evening Chronicle - Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Roll Of Honour.
SUMMERBELL - Lost at sea, as a result of enemy action, on H.M.S Hecla, November 12, 1942, Alexander Summerbell, son ot Mr. and Mrs. Summerbell. Newcastle. Service on Wednesday, July 28, at 8 a m.. St. Mary’s Cathedral. Deeply mourned. R.I.P.


http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14828753

(Name: Alexander Summerbell.
Official Number: SSX. 12361.
Date of Birth: 21 November 1906.
Place of Birth: St Nicholas, Newcastle, Northumberland.)


Edits (another below)

http://www.genesreunited.com.au/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1255920?d=asc

Susan Report 21 Jan 2011 09:57

TRYING TO FIND ANY INFORMATION ON GREAT GRANDMOTHER FRANCES SUMMERBELL(NEE McCANN) BORN 1882 IN CUMBRIA.MARRIED ALEXANDER HAD SEVERAL CHILDREN ANNIE b1909 MARY b1903ALEXANDERb1907 HELENA b1912 KITTY b?. KITTY

It looks possible Chris. In which case Susan may have traced back from a different Summerbell family.

Taking the 1911 posted on the other thread

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
69 George St Newcastle, Westgate, Northumberland, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Alexander Summerbell Head Married Male 35 1876 Newcastle General Labourer
Franciss Summerbell Wife Married Female 29 1882 Newcastle
Alish Mon Summerbell Daughter - Female 4 1907 Newcastle
Mary Lizzie Summerbell Daughter - Female 8 1903 Newcastle
Alexandrew Summerbell Son Single Male 4 1907 Newcastle
Annie Summerbell Daughter Single Female 2 1909 Newcastle
.....................
Back-tracking Alexander Summerbell c1876 Newcastle
1881 census

Alexander Summerbell
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relationship to Head: Son
Mother: Elizabeth Summerbell
Gender: Male
Where born: Gateshead, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Heworth
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street address: Quarry Row

Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Gateshead
ED, institution, or vessel: 12

Piece: 5031
Folio: 7
Page Number: 12

Elizabeth Summerbell 40 <<<<b Pittingham, Durham c1841. Widow
Emma Jane Summerbell 7
Alexander Summerbell 5
Nelley Summerbell 2
Jessey Millet 21
Jennet Brown Sykes 20
.........................
Birth reg from freebmd

Alexander Summerbelle
Registration Year: 1876
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Gateshead
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 887

Matching entry from the free search on GRO

SUMMERBELLE, ALEXANDER no mmn shown.
GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 887
.............
As no mother's maiden name is shown, one of two assumptions can be made
1 - she wasn't married
2 - the data wasn't captured when it was digitally scanned

Unless someone can find an earlier record for Mrs Elizabeth Summerbell(e) eg marriage or census, then may be Susan should consider buying a copy of Alexander Summerbelle's BC. If a father's name is shown, then we have a better chance of finding an appropriate earlier record, either a census or a marriage

Brought forward to avoid confusion

Alexander Summerbelle
Registration Year: 1876
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Gateshead
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 887

(looking at that Navy Record posted above, below looks to relate?)

Chris :)

SUMMERBELL, ALEXANDER (WILLIAMS)
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 86


Marriages Mar 1899 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen Esther Newcastle T. 10b 231
Miles Edward Newcastle T. 10b 231
Summerbell Alexander Newcastle T. 10b 231
Williams Harriet Frances W Newcastle T. 10b 231
Winn-Williams Harriet F Newcastle T. 10b 231


SUMMERBELL, ISABELLA (WILLIAMS)
GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 111


SUMMERBELL, MARY ELIZABETH (WILLIAMS)
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 108


SUMMERBELL, ANNIE (WILLIAMS)
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 99


SUMMERBELL, ELLEN (WILLIAMS)
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 171

The 1899 marriage does seem to tie in with other research on the previous threads. Would Alexander have declared a true father or just made one up?

Unfortunately Susan believes that Alexander's wife is "FRANCES SUMMERBELL(NEE McCANN)" not a Williams.

You'd have thought that "Alexander" and "Summerbell" would be a relatively easy combination of names to research, wouldn't you? :-S

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1353733?d=asc

(James Winn Williams (b) 1839)

(and then there is above relating, so confusion reigns!, not sure which actual Certs. have been bought, for facts)

Chris :)

Now that makes sense.

McCann wasn't (Harriet) Francis mmn, it was Williams/Wynn-Williams :-D
......
[From earlier thread]
!sabella's second marriage

Marriages Jun 1893 (>99%)
Abbott Bridget Newcastle T. 10b 252
xxxx McCan James Newcastle T. 10b 252
Monaghan William Newcastle T. 10b 252
xxxx Williams Isabella Wynn Newcastle T. 10b 252
...................
So although Isabella is shown as mother-in-law on the 1901 cenus, she was a Williams when (Harriet) Francis was born in c1883. McCan was her step-father's surname.
.............
[From earlier thread]
1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
13, Hanover Street, St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Alexander Summerbell Head Married Male 24 1877 Labourer In Factory -
Francis Summerbell Wife Married Female 19 1882 - -
Isabella McCann Mother-In-Law Widow Female 63 1838 General Dealer Penrith, Cumberland, England

Probably all we've achieved with certainty is

a) the 1866 marriage for an Alexander Summerbell (c1826) was to Mary A Dent.
b) Mrs Harriet Francis Summerbell's (1882) maiden name was Williams or Wynn Williams.

Time for the 1899 marriage certificate???

lol, well going 'round the houses' (or should I say 'Threads') usually gets us there!, well done Det.

Hope Susan can digest things...

Chris :)

Edits (after having another look round at things, saw below, how many Alexanders are there, lol, those Certs. definitely needed)


England, Births & Baptisms 1538-1975 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Alexander Tate
Last name Summerbell
Gender Male
Baptism year 1876
Baptism date 27 Aug 1876
Residence Gateshead, Durham, England
Place Gateshead
County Durham
Father's first name(s)
Father's last name
Mother's first name(s) Minetta
Mother's last name Summerbell

It all comes down to team-work and applying the basic principle - start with what you 'know' with documented evidence and work back from there :-D

If it's a direct line, as it seems to be in this case, save your pennies until you can afford the relevant certificates.
Although we can frequently work things out from available records, we've all made mistakes and taken the wrong turn.

Durham County Council
Marriage certificate for:
Name: DENT, Mary A
Year: 1866

Other index entries for this marriage:
SUMMERBELL, Alexander

The following options are available:
Request certificate (DENT, Mary A 1866)

https://gro.durham.gov.uk/

Just like to point out, marriages didn't necessarily take place around a birth!

My g grandparents had their first child in 1901.
G grandmother was always known as 'Mrs P', on birth certificates, 1901 and 1911 censuses, but didn't marry Mr P until 1924, after 10 children, as Mr P had ben married before, divorces were expensive, and they waited until the first Mrs P had died before marrying.
I also believe, if a spouse was in an asylum, they couldn't be divorced.