General Chat

Whilst acknowledging that London has traffic and pollution problems. the proposal to extend the Ultra Low Emission Zone to everywhere inside the North and South Circular roads has the potential to wreak havoc on businesses in the zone.

Many staff live a few miles outside the zone but drive to work a couple of miles inside so they will be hit by a daily charge of anything up to £12.50 unless they buy a new low emission car.

In only a small proportion of cases will there be a viable public transport alternative.

And why exempt taxis? There are far too many of them on London's roads already.

Isn't it ironic? Private diesel fuelled vehicles were promoted as more energy efficient thus saving the planets resources. Now they are the spawn of the devil.
It's not easy to find a petrol, manual geared 2 year old vehicle to buy. The majority are diesel & automatic.

Aside from diesel fuelled taxis, most (all?) of bulk transportation of goods are by diesel powered lorries and vans.

Driving v public transport is an age old problem. Buses (diesel) or trains don't run when and where people want to go. Cuts result in fewer options = more people using their own vehicles = further cuts in services or an increase in fares, as they are uneconomical to run

Well they could buy a bike... 5 miles doesn't take long and will keep you fit. There are electrically powered bikes too which can help with hills. To say there is a shortage of public transport inside the north/south circ roads is absurd - try any rural English county and you will discover what bus cuts really means.

The crisis of air pollution in the UK has been pushed under the carpet for years now we get crisis measures. the extra London airport runway will fail air quality. Then there are the trains and goods vehicles...

A few years ago I had a hot dispute with my bil about what I saw as his polluting diesel Audi he saw my petrol Jag (now sold) as the polluter... Heh heh. the nox problem with diesel has been known for years but ignored and supressed.

Business will just have to live with it. Expect the same in other cities. Paris is even tougher. Internal combustion power is on the way out just look at Tesla v Ford market valuation.

It is of no use hoping the measures will go away with brexit. the EU will demand equivalent environmental laws as part of any future trade deal.

Rollo, Brian was considering people outside of the N/S circular travelling into the area. The further out they are, the fewer available travel options.

Come to think of it, Buses are also diesel powered!

Bikes, whether pedal or electric powered, are an option but wouldn't suit everyone. Even assuming the risk of being knocked off on our crowded roads is reduced, many would be tucked away at home when it's cold, wet or windy.

Alan said "a few miles" from the A205 A406. Do you think that Friern Barnet Forest Hill Lewisham Hayes for instance are short of buses trains mini cabs and Uber?

buses and taxis will have to switch to electric power.

Business models built on the Hgv such as car mfg, supermarkets and Amazon are in for disruptive change.

And then of course there is shipping which is being forced to clean up its sulpherous act.

Between the North Circular and the Inner Ring Road in particular there are a lot of industrial estates with a fair proportion of their workers living several miles outside the NC.
In most cases there is not a single bus route that runs from close to home to close to the estate so one or more changes would be necessary. A fifteem minute journey each way becomes an hour.
How many blue collar workers could afford to take a ten or fifteen mile taxi ride to work and back every day?
In any case, the number of taxis required would very nearly be the same as the number of cars displaced.
Ditto schools (teachers and staff); shopping centres; and offices. In fact any type of commercial, local authority or government activity with employees in that area.

However, I totally agree that shipping and air travel need drastic cuts to cut pollution: we are not going to see electric planes for a very long time yet. And freight shipping is so cheap that that it can be economical for components for items manufactured in Europe to be shipped to the Far East for assembly and shipped back. Shame passenger fares do not follow suit!!

we have a busstop near our rifle range, during planning permission a councill employee suggested that bus transport would be advisable...............our firearms officer riposted........if i hear of any of you trying to get on a bus with your shooting kit............if i say jump..............you wait till i say............down............

some impedimenta just cannot be carried on public transport.............OR on a bike.........( unlike Blaster Bates, is his early days...)

Who is going to benefit from the charge because I thought it was not going to be limited to London?

If LAs are collecting the charge, they will be awash with money collected from buses, trucks etc which are by far the higher polluters. I doubt, however, such businesses will take the charge lying down and they'll have more clout than individual vehicle owners.

Watch what rises councillors allow themselves folks.

Perhaps I jump the gun so is the NHS going to benefit from the charge in order to treat people affected by fumes?

I confess I have not read enough about it all to be less cynical.

The next big thing? The danger of gas-powered vehicles in towns and cities - not for the first time either. :-0

Easyjet among others are financing Wright Inc on the USA to make a 150 seat airliner for short distance travel under 2 hours. Initially with mix electric conventional power and by 2030 pure electric.

Shipping us about to be hit by a drastic cut in sulphur emissions. Short sea routes can be replaced by electrical power - Norway is already doing so. Long distance will demand the very expensive fitting of scrubbers or the supply of clean fuel oil. currently there is a Mexican stand off between the two options. Most outcome sweet fuel oil much more expensive. For the moment rates are low cos even quite new ships have next to no value and are likely to be scrapped. Rated from 2020 likely to rise sharply knocking a very big hole in Maybot S trade plans.

I can remember in the hay day of Ford at Dagenham tens of thousands of blue colllar workers and technicians draftsmen etc getting to work every day from as far away as Barking Havering Harlow and Basildon... By pushbike.

The idiotic land use policies 1950 - 1980 should not mean we are prisoners of them. There are ongoing very disruptive changes to the way we live and work not seen in living memory. These changes were a key factor behind the brexit vote. Change is going to accelerate and firms will just have to adjust. Changes in clean air enforcement are just one small part of this.

Best current option is prob a Ford Focus or Golf lass car new petrol manual about £ 250 pm lease + deposit

I would assume in the hay day of Ford at Dagenham when tens of thousands of workers commuted daily by pushbike...it seems....that perhaps there were a lot less options available to them and the roads were probably a lot safer too....but I'm sure I'll be advised if I'm wrong. My dad used to wear clogs for one of his jobs many moons ago don't think I'll try though. Wish I could boast of more....

There were lots of buses - Green Line and Eastern National in Dagenham.
Many workers had cars but getting a parking place was another matter.

The roads were dangerous if the fatality stats are anything to go by. No Mot, lots of men had never sat a test or got their licence from the army, no breathalyser etc. Then there was my gt uncle who was a major Haulage contractor despite doing bird for aggravated drink driving. Nobody hurt lots of damage.

those were the days...

My aunt was one of those who never had to pass a test and she drove for years. Much safer than her OH too as we found out.

I got my Dl in the 60s when the test was v rudimentary compared to now. Yet half of young drivers make an insurance claim in their first year!

IMHO woman drivers are far safer and it is OK to have a zizz while they are in control. 3 It is nonsensical that their car ins is now the same as for men. It is also untrue that women always get lost. If they were really so clueless wartime delivery of Spitfires etc would have been a right mess.

I remember the Ford workers at Dagenham being able to purchase a vehicle at very advantageous rates :-D

My diesel powered car is exempt from congestion charges due to it's disability class, thank goodness for that. Although we usually visit people who live just outside the current zone. I would be really annoyed if that had been applied when I was driving from Essex/Cambridgeshire border into Central London every day for work, could I have afforded to keep that job? Don't know.

Thankfully I only have parking spaces to worry about now.