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Can anyone help me locate Columba English - she lived in London as a domestic and was either born in London, Northern or Southern Ireland. As far as I know she was married to William Smyth and had a daughter by him called Bernadette. William came from Crinstown Maynooth Co. Kildare Eire.
If you can help my email address is [email protected]. Thank you

Need some dates in order to do any looking, Stephanie. Approx dates of birth for the people you mention, approx date of marriage ...

An odd coincidence of names:


Name: Bernard Columba Smyth
Birth Date: 28 Mar 1912
Death Registration Month/Year: May 1989
Age at death (estimated): 77
Registration district: Redbridge
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 14
Page: 1332

Bernadette is my mother and she was born 12th April 1931. On her birth certificate her father is listed as William Smith (Smyth) and mother Columba Smith (English). As far as I know they were both born around the 1900's. William in Crinstown Maynooth Co. Kildare Eire and the only thing about Columba I know is that she was working in London and maybe she could have been born in North or Southern Ireland. Hope you can help me?

Me, I'm a washout on Irish anything, I'm afraid. For records in England, just can't find any that match up at all, e.g. for the marriage.

Have you tried looking at

http://www.freebmd.org

for anything that matches up with Columba or William?


Bernadette was actually registered as Smith:


Apr-Jun quarter 1931
SMITH Bernadette
mother's birth surname: English
district: Oldham
vol: 8d
page: 1205


So I decided to take pity on you ... and avoid working ... and try to find the Smith-English marriage in the untranscribed images I can view at Ancestry. I did 1930 ... and then I figured I should request more info first.

Did they have any other children? Specifically, any born before Bernadette, i.e. that would indicate an earlier marriage than might be the case if Bernadette had been their first?

Any other info you have that might suggest when they married, pass it on -- if we find their marriage, you can get the marriage certificate which will tell their fathers' names.

I persevered anyhow, and have encountered a problem with the 4th quarter of 1928. The link for the page with English takes me to the J-s. Backtracking, the link for the page with J-s takes me to the pages with S-s. Bless Ancestry's little heart. We'll just have to hope your people didn't marry in that quarter ...

Sorted it out; the E-s were under C ... but they weren't there.

No Columba English marriage back to the beginning of 1927, so far.

I should also have asked: do you know that they married?

It's a bit of a compliated one - mother as kept me in the dark about her life. Columba came up to Royton in Lancashire because she couldn't keep the baby where she worked and left mum with Williams sister Mary Taylor (Smyth) and mother stayed with her aunt. I've heard from the Irish side of the family that mother had a brother called Malcolm who drowned in the Thames also I know of two other siblings Honor and Jimmy - but I'm afraid no dates. But I think Bernadette was the eldest. Does this help any

Well now, the Mary Smyth sister may help a bit. Anything subsequent to William & Columba's marriage doesn't really help, as it just tells us what we already know -- their names. But Bernadette probably being the eldest does help some, with placing the marriage in time.

I'm wondering two things:
- were they actually married?
- had Columba been married before and therefore married William under a different surname?

If she had been married before, the chances of spotting their marriage in the untranscribed index is virtually nil, since we're looking for a William Smith or Smyth marrying an unknown surname at an unknown time in an unknown place. But once the transcription gets up to that era, it will be possible to search for the marriage (and any previous marriage) by Columba's given name. Patience, in this case, may be not so much a virtue as a necessity.

If the name really was Smyth -- remember that Bernadette was registered as Smith -- we have only one Mary Smyth + Taylor marriage transcribed so far:


Name: Mary C Smyth + Henry Taylor
Year of Registration: 1919
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's Surname: Taylor
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 1143


Do you know your Mary's husband's name? Given that your William was having children in the 1930s, your Mary could have been younger and married later, and that marriage would not be transcribed / searchable yet. That one's in the rightish place there, though, it seems.

And in the 1901 census we have:


Name: Mary C Smyth
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1895
Relation: Boarder (in a Drury household)
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Cuthbert
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: North Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 35


And isn't that just a drag -- aged 6, and not in her parents' household.

She would likely be this birth, though:


Name: Mary Catherine Smyth
Year of Registration: 1894
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Liverpool (1837-1934)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 44


This death doesn't fit with the timeline for being a brother of Bernadette of course:


Name: Malcolm M English
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1914
Year of Registration: 1916
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 2
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 487


but the name and place suggest some family connection.

This would be the birth record for that individual:


Name: Malcolm M English
Year of Registration: 1913
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's Maiden Name: Evans
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 675


There are only 5 other Malcolm English-s in the birth records:
- 2 in Cumbria who are likely father and son
- 2 in London who have Malcolm as a middle name, likely a family surname
- and this one:


Name: Owen Malcolm English
Year of Registration: 1905
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 385


Just, well, not quite clutching at straws ;) -- looking for possible family, for clues to times and places.


A next step might be to order the Mary Catherine Smyth birth certificate to get parents' names. That would at least allow for searching for them in the 1901 census (or before, if the case was that they were deceased in 1901 -- and looking for death records in that case).

There are nearly a dozen William Smyths in the Liverpool vicinity in 1901 who could possibly be yours -- or yours could have been born after 1901, of course, and there are a dozen possibilities there too.

Assuming, again, that the name was Smyth and not Smith.


If Columba was having children in the 1930s, it's quite likely she wasn't born before 1901, and thus wouldn't be in the 1901 census.

Any thoughts on any of this??

Just a bit on the household where that Mary C Smyth was a boarder in 1901:


Patrick Drury 62 - coachman, born in Ireland
Catherine Drury 57 - born in Ireland
Joseph P Drury 34 - son, single, born in Liverpool
Sarah Drury 22 - boarder, single, dressmaker, born in Liverpool
Mary C Smyth 6 - boarder, born in Liverpool


Why is the young woman named Drury a "boarder"? Is Mary C Smyth her daughter? Mary had the same middle name as the name of the woman in the household, Catherine Drury.

Mm hmm. Here they are in 1891:


Patrick Drury 53
Catherine Drury 43
Joseph Drury 24
Margaret Drury 10
Sarah Drury 12 - daughter


I suspect she became "boarder" when she came home to roost with her daughter and worked and paid room and board. There's also daughter Margaret in the 1891 household who's a potential mother of Mary C Smyth. Or son Joseph could have been her father.

But the only Drury-Smyth marriage in that vicinity in that time period was:


Marriages Sep 1893
Copestake John West Derby 8b 951
Drury Annie West Derby 8b 951
Smyth Francis W. Derby 8b 951
Thompson Emily Frances W. Derby 8b 951


These people are as likely to be complete red herrings as to be a source of your William Smyth. But sometimes ya just gotta wander down some tangents before ya find what yer after!

Looks like Annie Drury who may have married Francis Smyth was another daughter of Patrick and Catherine; in 1881:


Patrick Drury 42
Catherine Drury 32
Annie Drury 11
Joseph P. Drury 14
Margaret Drury 1
Mary Drury 6
Sarah Drury 2
Thomas Drury
Margaret Drury 80 - mother
Robert Haygarth 32


If that Mary C Smyth who married Mr. Taylor in 1919 is your mother's aunt Mary, we're cooking with gas. At this point we don't have anything to base that connection on, unfortunately.

Francis Smyth in the 1891, I'd guess:


Name: Francis Smyth
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St James the Less
County/Island: Lancashire


Which means this is probably his death:


Name: Francis Smyth
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Year of Registration: 1916
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 46
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 385


and this is probably Annie's death:


Name: Annie Smyth
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Year of Registration: 1908
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 36
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 318


but I can't find him and Annie in the 1901 at all. Nope, wrong -- here they are:


Name: Francis Smith
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie
Gender: Male
Where born: Down, Ireland

Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Polycarp
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: North Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 129

Annie Smith 28
Francis Smith 30
Francis J Smith 5


If they're yours, we're learning all about them!

The Smyth family came from Southern Ireland - Crinstown Co Kildare. Mary went to Vermont in Canada and married a Polish Canadian farmer and had a daughter Kathleen. They came back to England (Royton Lancashire) were she re married a Thomas Taylor under the name of Mary Williams which she changed from her Polish surname.
I know that Columba, Honor and Jimmy lived in London - I can't remember the area but it's where the old BBC studios use to be. Thanks for the research you've done so far. Do you think you can get any further?

Well, so far it seems I've got the wrong Mary Smyth, so not doing all that well. ;)

Vermont isn't in Canada; it's in the US. Do you have any idea of these dates? Marriage records in Canadian provinces, if she was in Canada, and if she married before the early 1920s (cutoff date for access because of privacy rules), might show parents' names. But if she was in Vermont, then she was in the US. US censuses are available up to 1930, and finding her in a census could tell us something -- at least her birth year. Do you know what her husband's surname was? (before she anglicized it to Williams -- or had he already done that?)

You're doling out info in dribs and drabs. Is there more that you haven't offered yet? If I'd had that info about Mary, I wouldn't have spent that time tracking the possible Mary around the English records.

Like I said, it really doesn't help to know where Columba, Honor and Jimmy lived in London in the 1930s or 40s. We can't do much to find them there then -- records aren't available. Except for the children's birth records, which could presumably be found by scouring the GRO pages, but like I said, that isn't going to tell us anything we don't already know.

If you know anything more about Mary, do tell! -- In particular, did she have children in the US (or Canada)?

Hi Steph,

If you are trawling through West Derby for info also trawl through Liverpool.

The registration boundary was roughly down the middle of Scotland (Scottie) Road. Generally, the locals moved house up and down the social scale fairly frequently.

As a Scouser tracking my own family I am well aware of the necessity.

george

Is there any possibility of this being Mary Smyth's marriage, or is the timeframe 20 years out?


Name: Thomas Taylor + Mary A Williams
Year of Registration: 1913
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's Surname: Williams
District: Leigh
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 499

Steph,

Try www.lancashirebmd.org.uk immediately select marriages and then the town, or leave it general.

The births are still being done

G

Done! Thanks, George.

No Columba English married in Lancashire 1915-1940.

No William Smith or Smyth married a Columba, ditto ditto.

... or 1900 to 1965, for that matter ...

I found my Kathleens birth details her father was Louis Wysocke his address was 33 Lawrence St
Hartford Conneticut. So Marys married name was Wysocke. I don't know when they were married but Kathleen was born on 6th September 1920. in Crinstown Co Kildare Eire. I spoke to Kathleens daughter Pauline and she said she was told her grandad died in a farming accident and that her nan came back to Ireland to have the baby.
Also Pauline gave me the details of her nans re marriage. At the register office in Oldham on the 28th June 1923 Thomas Taylor 29yrs married Mary Williams 27yrs.

I'm sorry I did not give you these details - I have been kept in the dark - but now I feel as though I need my grandparents details. I know you will understand. Thank you

I am so thankful that you have taken the time to look into this request. I was finding it hard to get any further and thought a pair of fresh eyes might see something I hadn't

Aha. Mary Smyth, married name Mary Wysocke, married as Mary Williams on 28 June 1923 to Thomas Taylor.

If Pauline has those details, it sounds like she has the marriage certificate. If so, does it not state their fathers' names??

If she doesn't have it, these are the details for ordering it:


marriages apr-may-jun quarter 1923
WILLIAMS Mary
(spouse is Taylor)
district Oldham
vol 8d
page 1102


Mary's parents are William's parents. Getting her father's name will be a start.

There are too many Mary Smyths born in Liverpool / West Derby c1896 to be sure which one she is, but with her father's name she could, hopefully, be identified in the 1901 census.

There are only two who would have been exactly 27 yrs old in June 1923 -- a Mary Eva and a Mary Jane. She is perhaps more likely to be this Mary Smyth:

Name: Mary Smyth
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 521

but then again, she could have been Smith.

Edit -- or born in Ireland?


I'm not seeing them in the 1920 US census in Hartford, or anywhere in Connecticut. Mary might have left the US already by census day. There are Wysockes in other states, but not there. Of course, there are undoubtedly also mistranscriptions ...