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Just want to thank all you lovely people for giving me a few pointers - I definately had two family lines going there. I got part of the tree from another member now I'm going to have to tell them that its a little mixed up. Thanks anyway.
Jean

Thanks Dee,
Its very early morning here in New Zealand so I will really look at it properly tomorrow - I will have to do myself a graph. Thanks Jean

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Emma Hartfield
Name: Emma Hartfield
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1855
Spouse Name: Samuel Sayce
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Aug 1873
Parish: St Thomas, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Hartfield
Spouse Father Name: John Sayce



1881 England Census
about Emma Sayce
Name: Emma Sayce
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Samuel
Gender: Female
Where born: Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Hamlet
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 83 Sceptre St >>>>>>>>>>> !!!!!!!!!
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Sayce 26
Emma Sayce 25
Emma Sayce 6
Alice Sayce 2


Look at the address for the 1881 census with Arthur and his parents William and Ann.



Dee x

Now looking at the witnesses on Arthurs marriage cert to Emily they are;

Samuel & Emma Sayce.

Here's their marriage;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1873 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EVANS Frederick William Bethnal Green 1c 739
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hartfield Emma Bethnal Green 1c 739
MELVIN Sarah Ann Bethnal Green 1c 739
>>>>>>>>>SAYCE Samuel Bethnal Green 1c 739



Now William Hartwells wife was a Hartfield before she married........ so is this Williams cousin being his witnesses???



Dee x

Hi Jean,

I would say that your line has come from William Hartwell born 1832 in Spitalfields....... Arthurs marriage cert to Emily confirms that his father was William who was also a Carman... this fits with what I have found, although I can't see this particular Arthur in 1871!

On the 1881,1891 and 1901 census returns Arthur is stated as Arthur on these, where as the James Arthur born to James and Elizabeth is stated as James in 1881?

Looking at the marriages for James and Elizabeths other children they list their father as James and a Warehouseman..... so it's looking to me as if you may have followed the wrong line?


Dee x

To add to the above:
Caroline Hartwell married on 18/10/1920 her father is listed as Arthur Hartwell.
Jean

One Reply to Everyone - thanks for replying to my quick note.
Oh this is so hard to explain, so please bear with me: I will go back to the beginning -
James Hartwell born 1811 in Cople Bedfordshire had a son James Hartwell born 1843 Cople - this James married a Elizabeth Geary 13/10/1862 - they had a son
James Arthur 1867 born Bromley, mother Elizabeth Hartwell nee Geary - the father was a blacksmith. -
(I have certificates for all of this)
From here its confusing -
Arthur (21) married Emily Severn 1 August 1887, he was a Tin plate Worker - his father is down as William Hartwell Carman, her father is David Severn, smith. - they went on to have 7 children one of who was Arthur David Hartwell born 21/10/Oct 1888, mother Emily Hartwell nee Severn, father Tin plate worker I have certificates for this
In a way all of you are right but I cannot locate or even fit William Hartwell into this picture. Am I looking at two different families who happen to have lots of Arthurs or was William hartwell's name really Arthur. By the way Arthur and Emily are my great great grand parents I'm decended from their daughter Caroline born Oct 1895 in Bethnal Green.

Jean in NZ

1871 England Census
about Wm Hartwell
Name: Wm Hartwell
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Anne
Gender: Male
Where born: Spitalfields, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Simon Zelotes
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 118
Household Members: Name Age
Wm Hartwell 39
Anne Hartwell 42
Alice Hartwell 19
Emma Hartwell 16


1861 England Census
about Alice Hartwill
Name: Alice Hartwill
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1852
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Wm
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: B Green

Civil parish: Spitalfields
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Spitalfields
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 121
Household Members: Name Age
Wm Hartwill 29 >>> carman
Ann Hartwill 31
Alice Hartwill 9
Emma Hartwill 5
Wm Hartwill 2
Alice Hartwill 74 Mother born Surrey


This looks to be the same family....... but where's Arthur 1871???



Dee x

Another birth for William ans Ann;

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Jane Ann Hartwell
Name: Jane Ann Hartwell
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 2 Aug 1863
Father's Name: William Hartwell
Mother's Name: Ann Hartwell
Parish: St Matthew, Bethnal Green
Borough: Tower Hamlets
County: Middlesex

The baptism I found for Arthur shows his father William was a Carman.... this marriage confirms William was a Carman;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William Hartwell
Name: William Hartwell
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1833
Spouse Name: Ann Hartfield
Spouse Age: 27
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 1 Mar 1858
Parish: St Philip, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Hartwell
Spouse Father Name: William Hartfield

Dee x

His baptism;

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Arthur James Hartwell
Name: Arthur James Hartwell
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 29 Jul 1866
Father's Name: William Hartwell
Mother's Name: Ann Hartwell
Parish: St Matthias, Bethnal Green
Borough: Tower Hamlets
County: Middlesex



Looks like his DOB was 5th July 1866

With this birth registration;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1866 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hartwell Arthur J Whitechapel 1c 318

Jean,

Have you considered this census?

1881 England Census
about Arthur Hartwill
Name: Arthur Hartwill
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Spitalfields, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Hamlet
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 83 Sceptre St
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Errand Boy

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Hartwill 49
Ann Hartwill 42
Arthur Hartwill 14




Dee x

1861 England Census
about James Hartwell
Name: James Hartwell
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Margaret
Gender: Male
Where born: Cople, Bedfordshire, England

Civil parish: Cople
County/Island: Bedfordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Bedford
Sub-registration district: Bedford and Cardington
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 123
Household Members: Name Age
James Hartwell 50
Margaret Hartwell 30
Jonathan Hartwell 20
James Hartwell 17
Harriet Hartwell 8 Mo

1871 England Census
about James Hortwell
Name: James Hortwell
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Copel, Bedfordshire, England
Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Household schedule number: 203
Household Members: Name Age
James Hortwell 28
Elizabeth Hortwell 28
Annie Hortwell 5
Arthur Hortwell 3
Gertrude Hortwell 1
James Seate 36

So this is the family you think is correct?

1881 England Census
about James Hartwell
Name: James Hartwell
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Cople, Bedfordshire, England

Civil parish: St Mary Stoke Newington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 3 Knebworth Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Toy Warehouseman

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: Stoke Newington
ED, institution, or vessel: 12a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Hartwell 38
Elizabeth Hartwell 38
Annie Hartwell 15
>>>>Arthur Hartwell 13
Gertrude Hartwell 11
Jessie Hartwell 9
Sidney Hartwell 7
James Hartwell 5
Albert Hartwell 2
Elizabeth Hartwell


Dee x

Could this be James Arthur Hartwell's marriage? :-

Name: James Arthur Hartwell
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Croydon
County: Greater London, Kent, Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 539

Spouse either Charlotte Ethel Wake or Catherine Sarah Barlow.

Only the certificate will let you know for certain. You could order it using the father's name James as a checking point.

Kath. x

I'm trying to sort out a problem on my family tree.
Son born 9/6/1867 James Arthur Hartwell to James & Elizabeth Hartwell (nee Geary), he was a
Blacksmith. - I then have what I thought was Arthur (James)Hartwell marriage cert to Emily Severn on 1/8/1887 trouble is Arthurs father is listed as William Hartwell -.
This is my problem - William Hartwell doesn't seem to fit properly.
I've always thought that his father was James Hartwell born 1843 in Cople, Bedfordshire. Was his fathers name James William Hartwell. I would appreciate it if a family member could help me out.
Jean - New Zealand