Find Ancestors

Going on an educated guess after months of thinking my great grand parents were married in Ireland, i think i've discovered they were married in LIVERPOOL or Lancashire at least .. but can't find any record.

Can anyone please help me with finding the marriage of ..

(on or between the years of 1884 to 1887)

James HAYES b 1843 (give or take 1 yr) .. to ..
Mary Jane PURCELL b 1855 (give or take 1) - both born in Ireland.


I'm desperate to find out their Irish history & this is my only key.

Thank you in advance for any help.
Lorna

Lorna,

It's quite possible they never married... lots didn't !!

Tracey

Hi,

Can't find a marriage for them.

A few more details may help - do you have them on any census we could look at as a starting point?

Dea x

For reference if anyone else is looking, I believe this would be them on 1891:

James Hayes
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary J
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catherine
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Mount Pleasant
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Caleb Hayes 1
Christena Hayes 3/12
James Hayes 48
Mary J Hayes 36
Mathew Hayes 3

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2914; Folio 51; Page 34; GSU roll: 6098024.

............

I believe that by 1901 - James, Mary Jane + Christina had all died?

I can find Matthew aged 13 - a pauper in Kirkdale Industrial School, Liverpool.

I can find no trace of Caleb, though I can't see a death either.

So far I cannot find a marriage for James + Mary Jane Purcell.

Are we sure this is her correct name?

Do you know when they came over from Ireland?

Dea x

A possibility to check on perhaps?

On 1881:
Mary J. Purcell
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Widnes
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 36 Victoria St
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)
Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: Farnworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Bartholomew Purcell 58
Bartholomew Purcell 17
James Purcell 23
Mary Purcell 48
Mary Purcell 2
Mary A. Purcell 15
Mary J. Purcell 25
Peter Purcell 11
Samuel Purcell 9
William Purcell 19


Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3726; Folio: 17; Page: 27; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341892.

...............

Marriages Sep 1878
Ambler Isabella Prescott 8b 1059
Dagnall Henry Prescott 8b 1059

***KELLY Mary Jane Prescott 8b 1059
***Purcell Alexander Prescott 8b 1059




Deaths Mar 1879
Purcell Alexander 32 Prescott 8b 544

..................


Marriages Jun 1891
****Hayes James Bolton 8c 565
****Kelly Mary Jane Bolton 8c 565
Morris Thomas Bolton 8c 565
Ryan Annie Bolton 8c 565


I have to go off for a while - will try to check further later.

Dea x

I believe this is 'little Mary' on 1891?

Mary Parcell
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Scholar
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Panama

Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: South Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: St Elizabeths Institute for Girls

Dea x

Ah thanks Dea .. you've gone to so much trouble i really appreciate it!

I hate to tell you this though after all of your effort but i have all the census info (the 1891 is definitely them) .. it was just the record of marriage i couldn't find. I should have made that clear sorry Dea.

I'll tell you all i know ...

The story for a fact is my grand father Matthew was my mothers dad .. she & her 2 sisters grew up with him & their mother.

He'd mentioned being in an ophanage (which i traced to Kirkdale Industrial school from the age of 9) .. his brother & sisters Caleb, Christina & Mary Ann (born after the 1891 census) were put into foster homes.

My mum remembers them all & their families so they must have reunited as adults. Strange that they are not on any census.

Mary Jane was born in 1855 & James 1843

I have a copy of my grandfather Matthews birth certificate which states the parents names clearly & i also have his marriage cerificate which states his father.

I traced James Hayes to the 1871 census at the age of 28 which says unmarried - then to the 1881 census which says unmarried also, which makes me think its the same one as he was 48 at the time his 1st child was 3.

The 1881 census says he was a lodger & underneath 'where born' it normally has just Ireland .. this time it says Kilkenny. I am desperate to know where both James & Mary Jane where from in Ireland (for my mother) so at least i have a little more to go on ..(if it is him).

A marriage cerificate would have at least given me both fathers names.

As for Mary J .. i did look at the 1881 census with Bartholomew as the head but im guessing she could have been married to a Purcell & he died - hence it just saying lodger (& widow), not relation (altho' i know mistakes are made often).

On the 1861 census i found a Mary Hayes 6 (right age).. the head was her grandmother Mary Hayes 62 & daughter Bridget 28 .. all born in Ireland. I've a feeling that could be them but then again, who knows.

I'm from Liverpool but now live in Oz. Last year i went back & looked up the Hayes family in the main Liverpool library. I looked up Walnut st in the old street directory which was stated on my grandfathers birth cerificate & 1891 cencus. They lived in lodgings when Matthew was born then moved a couple of houses down where James' name appeared for a few years. Then the year after his name went from the directory & Mary J's replaced, it was the year Matthew went into the industrail school. James must have died & Mary J possibly couldnt look after them all.

Ive sent for a death cerificate for James which im waiting on.

As for Mary J i have no idea.

So Dea .. you see my plight! And the more i try to find the more addicted i get & the more frustrated when i hit brick walls.

To not be able to find the marriage is a real pain. Maybe they did meet & marry in Ireland & all the other census except 1891 have nothing to do with them after all. Maybe they weren't married at all as Wayne/Tracey says in this thread.

I will try to find out more re the Kilkenny connection, altho' it will be difficult.

Anyway Dea thank you again & if you unearth anything interesting for me on your travels around Genes id love to know.

Take care
Lorna

Just throwing in my 2 cents here -- I like Dea's hypothesis:


Marriages Sep 1878
Ambler Isabella Prescott 8b 1059
Dagnall Henry Prescott 8b 1059
***KELLY Mary Jane Prescott 8b 1059
***Purcell Alexander Prescott 8b 1059

Deaths Mar 1879
Purcell Alexander 32 Prescott 8b 544

Marriages Jun 1891
****Hayes James Bolton 8c 565
****Kelly Mary Jane Bolton 8c 565
Morris Thomas Bolton 8c 565
Ryan Annie Bolton 8c 565


It leaves Mary Jane marrying the second time under her birth surname rather than her first married surname, and putting her first married surname on the children's birth certs rather than her birth surname ... but this isn't the first time I've seen a situation here at GR where that seems to have been the case.

I'd splurge and order those two marriage certificates and see what they say. It's the only way to confirm or deny the hypothesis!

Wow Kathryn!!! I would never in a million years have picked up on that, i just glanced over it before .. but Dea was on the money with spotting it! You two should be detectives! ..

There's a query tho' .. I know for a fact that they were in Walnut St Liverpool in 1887 when Matthew was born (birth certificate info) .. still there when he was 3 with 2 siblings at the time of the 1891 census - which would mean they weren't married until 1891. I didnt think this would be a common thing with the Irish Catholics even tho' it must have happened.

Maybe as James was older & Mary being married before it didnt really matter. Also they were married in Bolton?? .... possibly staying away from Liverpool where people knew them.
(Its impossible not to get carried away isn't it & start inventing things so they fit!!)

What do you reckon Kathryn & Dea, could this still be them? ...(& anyone else with a thought on the matter)
Lorna

Good morning Lorna,

Yes, I still think that marriage cert (James + Mary Jane Kelly) is well worth getting hold off.

As far as I can see it is the only one that seems to fit.

Let us know what it says.

This would also seem favourite for Mary Jane's death: ?

Deaths Jun 1896
Hayes Mary 42 Liverpool 8b 78

Dea x

Good morning Dea (or good evening from where i am)!

The death of Mary Hayes looks about right & ties in with matthew going into the orphanage & the others being fostered out ... i didnt have that so many thanks!!

Also, ive just searched for Mary Kelly & come across the Bartholomew Purcell clan again.

That would tie in with her being a new Purcell in 1878, a widow in 1879 & living with these Purcells in the 1881 census (saying she was a widow).

I will order that certificate & will certainly let you know!

Thank you Dea!
Lorna

I've ordered the 2 marriage certs this morning Dea .. so i'll let you know in case you're curious how it pans out. I have a feeling you're right tho'.
Lorna

Dea remember all of this ?? I was still in a twist with it all until recently.

As my grandfather was born in 1887 & the 1st born child of 4 .. i was looking for the marriage of my grandparents in Liverpool & Ireland between 1884 to 87 ... well you'd think that would be right!

Well a wonderful lady who's in Ireland 'Mary' had answered one of my James Hayes requests in her family tree. Our James Hayes wasn't the same one but she helped me anyway ... massively.

She did something i didnt do & looked outside the box. She did a search on 'family search pilot' .. & went right back further than i thought was necessary. SHE FOUND THE MARRIAGE FOR THEM IN DUBLIN IN 1880!!

(Not only that ... she's helped me find a possible brother of Mary Jane & a possible brother of James ... awaiting those certs too )..

They were married for 7 yrs before having my grandfather. Mary then looked for deaths of infants & it looks like there could have been quite a few prior..

Ive sent for the long sort after marraige cert which im still waiting on.

I thought id update this page & to let people know after 3 yrs ive found what i was looking for .. also to tell everyone to not just look for the obvious.

Ive learned that lesson a few times now (the hard way).

Thank you to everyone that has helped me. Epecially Dea & Mary!! xx
Take care
Lorna.xx

So I'm browsing Trying to Find, avoiding work ... and I randomly click here ... and I'm reading through, trying to follow the train, and I saw Dea's name ... and I somehow missed mine, until you said: "Wow Kathryn!!!" -- and I jumped up straight, and looked around, and thought What? Me? Who? Where? ;)

Yes, that's me. Long time gone, new name, still the same, back just in the nick of time to catch your update by accident!

So it was a good theory, Dea, but it done gone lame. ;)

How excellent for you that you found that record in Ireland. I just throw up my hands when I see "Irish".

Now hmm. I wonder whether you could find my grx4 grfather Hugh Morrison, living in Cheshire in 1841, born 1768ish ... in "Ireland" ... That shouldn't be too difficult!

Unfortunately, he did marry in England, before registration ...

Hi Lorna,

Yes - I DO remember this one and it is lovely to see that you now have the info you were looking for.

I am afraid, like Janey (good to see you again too Janey!), I am absolutely useless with Irish research - it's lucky that you found 'Mary' to help you there.

Thanks for the update and let us know what you find.

Dea x

Ah KathrynB as was. I didnt notice your name on here anymore .. sorry i didnt say thank you to you too. It may not have been the right track but it was very clever detective work of you!

Since last year ive found a death cert for James & Mary Jane after sending for 'lots' & them being wrong.

So sad .. James died on 1st Jan 1893 in Liverpool aged 44 of asthma (attack i presume) he left 3 little ones & a very pregnant Mary Jane. (That explains why im not a huge fan of NYE!).

Mary Jane died 3 yrs later aged 36 of a strangulated umbilacal hernia - bled to death. Leaving 4 children all under 9.

A massive break through was the informant on her cert. It was her brother - R Purcell of 20 Peter St Dublin (the only clue to where they originated .. possibly).

I searched 1911 Dublin records & found an Richard Purcell (of the right age) who was a shoemaker (as was James himself) .. a decent clue.

I then serached for him on familysearch pilot & found his marriage to Agnes.. ive sent for that cert too.

I'll be going back to Liverpool from Sydney in July & i'll take my parents over to Ireland for a few days. Id love to take my mum to check out the church where her grand parents were married to see if there is any more family clues.

Take care all!
Lorna