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Hi all.

I'm trying to find some record of my grandfather 'R.W.Munro-Smith' who lived at East Gate, Legation St., Peking, N.China during at least 1927,1928, and 1929.

He was born Rudolf Wilhelm Schmidt in Dundee Scotland in 1879, but later changed his name to Munro-Smith.

He probably also changed his name to Rudolf William Munro-Smith.

He lived in Bideford Devon before moving to China.

My father never spoke of him, so I have no idea what he was doing in China.

His wife's name was Ethel Sarah Taylor nee Hookway 1881-1960

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Allan

Have you found him on any censuses?

Have you found his marriage?

Have you found his birth registration, to try to determine his parents?




sylvia

Just in case, and to give information to other helpers


1881 Scottish Census

Name: Rudolf W Schmidt
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relationship: Son
Father's name: Friedrick R Schmidt
Mother's name: Jane Schmidt
Gender: Male
Where born: Dundee, Forfar
Registration Number: 387
Registration district: Perth
Civil parish: Kinnoull and Scone
COUNTY: Perthshire
Address: Carrick House
ED: 37
Household schedule number: 59
Line: 9
Roll: cssct1881_110

Friedrick R Schmidt 31 b.ca 1850, Germany, Foreman Tailor
Jane Schmidt 28 b.ca 1853, Banff, Banffshire
Rudolf W Schmidt 3
Adelhide M Schmidt 1 b.ca 1880, Pitlochry, Perth
Mary Watt 16 Domestic Servant



1891 Census (England)

Name: Rudolf Schmidt
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's name: Frederick Schmidt
Mother's name: Jane Schmidt
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland

Civil parish: Bideford
Ecclesiastical parish: Bideford
Town: Bideford
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Registration district: Bideford
Sub-registration district: Bideford

Frederick Schmidt 41 b.ca 1850, Germany, British Subject, Tailor
Jane Schmidt 31 b.ca 1860, Scotland
Rudolf Schmidt 12
Adelhaide Schmidt 11 b.ca 1880, Scotland
Albert Schmidt 7 b.ca 1884, Bideford, Devon
Constance Schmidt 4 b.ca 1887, Bideford
Schmidt 1 Day b.1891, Bideford
Annie Munro 11, b.ca 1881, Scotland, Niece
Minnie Mitchell 20 Domestic Servant

Address:- 71 High Street




so the family moved from Scotland to Devon between 1881 and 1884



sylvia

and in 1901

1901 Census

Name: Rudolf Schmidt
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland

Civil parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: St Marylebone
Sub-registration district: All Souls

William Herbert 54 Hotel Keeper
Emma Herbert 50
Nellie Lolley 40 Servant
Agnes Aris 45 Cook
Millie Mc Cabe 25 Servant
Elizabeth Miller 61 Servant
Isabel James 18 Servant
Albert Schmidt 19 b.ca 1882, Bideford, Devon, Boarder, Commercial Clerk
Rudolf Schmidt 23 Tailor Cutter
James Hunt 24
Thomas Taylor 25
Stephen Goate 49
David Davis 26
Percy Wood 19

Address:- 83 Wells Street


all the other men were alos Boarders




sylvia

He married Ethel in 1904, registered Bideford, as Rudolf Wilhelm Schmidt




so any name change came after that date




all this is information that you should have given in order to save us time in trying to help you.


I presume that you have googled his name in order to see whether there is anyhting on the web?




sylvia

Maybe his wife and daughter. Can't find a record of him travelling though

Name: Ethel S F M SMITH
Date of departure: 3 July 1920
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Shanghai, China
Passenger destination: Shanghai, China

Date of Birth: 1881 (calculated from age)
Age: 39
Marital status:
Sex: Female
Occupation: Nil
Passenger recorded on: Page 1 of 4



The following people with the same last name travelled on this voyage: -

Faith Munro SMITH Page 1 of 4 View transcript

Found him. He is a Tailor. I thought he may be a merchant or something which is why he was travelling to china.

Name: Munro R W SMITH
Date of departure: 16 September 1922
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Shanghai, China
Passenger destination: Shanghai, China

Date of Birth: 1878 (calculated from age)
Age: 44
Marital status:
Sex: Male
Occupation: Tailor
Passenger recorded on: Page 3 of 5


Address given as 57 Fordwych Road NW2

Is this Ethel returning to London from China?

UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960 Record for Ethel Munro Smith

Name: Ethel Munro Smith
Birth Date: abt 1881
Age: 70
Port of Departure: Hong Kong, China
Arrival Date: 22 Jan 1951
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Colombo
[Bombay]
Ship Name: Carthage
Search Ship Database: View the 'Carthage' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping line: Peninsula and Orient Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 162658


from image:-
Address:- 'Walland Carey', Bucks Cross, N Devon
Occupation:- Housewife
Boarded in Hong Kong
Countyr of Last Permanent Residence:- Hong Kong




sylvia

I bet he changed his name around the beginning of WW1


There was a great deal of anti-german ill-will at that time, even to people who had been born in the UK. Even the names of towns were changed if they sounded Germanic.





sylvia

1911

SCHMIDT, Rudolf W Head Married
6 years M 32 1879 Tailor Scotland Dundee
SCHMIDT, Ethel Sarah Taylor Wife Married
6 years F 30 1881 Devon Bideford
SCHMIDT, Ruth Daughter F 1 1910 Bideford Devon
HART, Elsie Maud Servant Single F 21 1890 General Servant Domestic Bideford Devon
BEAR, Ernest Apprentice Single M 20 1891 Apprentice To Tailoring Clovelly Devon

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
13431 Reference:
RG14PN13431 RG78PN781 RD286 SD1 ED2 SN48

Registration District:
Bideford Sub District:
Bideford Enumeration District:
2 Parish:
Bideford

Address:
33 Bridgeland St Bideford County:
Devonshire

Chris :)

As he was a tailor, I would presume he was working there in that profession ............ perhaps catering to the English population


Shanghai was a very vibrant city in the 1920s, parts of it even very naughty.

Wallis Simpson, the reason Edward VII abdicated, spent time in Shanghai at some point in the 1920s, and there are some very strange stories about what went on while she was there.




sylvia

Dear O dear O dear... You've all made a magnificent effort, and I thank you for your exceptional kindness.

But! ... I have already got all of the above, with the exception of a couple of gems here.

I specifically wanted to know of any record of an 'R.W.Munro-Smith' in north China, but unfortunately I didn't make this too clear.

I apologise.

Even so, you've provided me with some tasty morsels here for my contemplation and dancing pleasure.

There are skeletons in the cupboard. Big and noisy ones, but I don't know the nature of what the secret is.

When Rudolf Wihelm Schmidt's daughter Ethel was a very old lady I used to visit her alone from school. We would have tea and play mahjong.

She never once mentioned anyone who was a member of the family. She had at least 4 siblings, and whole legions of relatives from her husband's family.

Not a word spoken about any of them. She was an imposing figure, so I never dared ask. Some great iron door had slammed down at some time between her and The Rest of Them.

Her son - my father - spoke fluent Mandarin like a native, and spent all of his adult life in various parts of China.

Again, thanks for the help.

Yes, Sylvia, I know all about those bawdy years in pre-war Shanghai and Tientsin. :))

http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/lyrics/thosewere.htm

I've copied all your information to my hdd.

Thank you again Sylvia, Astra, and Chris Ho:)

You've opened up yet another mystery.

Why did my grandmother Ethel travel to north China almost a whole two years before her husband Rudolf followed her... ? Who was waiting in China for her?

Meanwhile, what was he doing?

I don't think he went there to be a tailor. Harbin, Tientsin and Shanghai were stiff with Jewish tailors who had crossed over from Russia.

And what happened to Rudolf after his wife returned without him to England? Divorced?

***

I wish I knew where you source the information from that I can't find here or at Ancestry.com. I could then do my own research without having to impose upon anyone here.

Sylvia, Astra, rootgatherer and others - you've all produced results for me that I haven't been able to find for myself.

Due to 'budgetary reasons' my Age Pension doesn't allow me to remain a member of these search sites indefinitely, and so I'm on the final leg of my ancestry search odyssey.

I'm in the process of finalizing my family tree. Whatever remains, I'll leave it up to my niece to continue the muster in future years if she feels so inclined.

Regards,
Allan.

PS. Many thanks to the staff here for being so helpful and patient with me over these past few weeks.

Allan


everyone on these boards are members like yourself, we just love delving into mysteries, and helping others!


I found my information on Ethel returning to England on ancestry.co.uk ............. I have Premium Membership on there


I think the outbound information was found either on ancestry with World Membership, or more likely on findmypast.co.uk

The 1911 Census information was from findmypast ........ it is also available on the 1911 census site. You can search for free, then buy credits in order to look at the actual census image, which was filled out by the householder, so you can see your ancestor's actual handwriting

www.fmpbsol.1911census.co.uk/

60 credits cost £6.95. You need 10 credits to see the transcript and 30 credits to see the actual page.

I prefer to use the 1911 census site, over fmp ................... it's much cheaper!





sylvia

Thanks Sylvia, you're an angel.

You Helpers remind me of what happens in my backyard every morning. My backyard has a few tall trees along one side that are a rookery to every bird within miles.

I'll poke my head out the backdoor... no sounds... no movement... a deserted back lawn... the air is heavy and still.... and then I'll toss some bread out into the middle... and moments later a cloud of feathered creatures descends from the trees and there's a riot of pecking and tearing and squabbling over these scraps.

I'm sure you don't squabble, Sylvia. Not vocally, anyway. I'll bet you just use your elbows if the crowd of Helpers gets too thick. :)

Thanks for the tips!

Allan / Westward Ho! / Richard Tracy (I can't remember which I'm supposed to be now).


I've just checked: I can't find any Premium Membership at Ancestry. I'm on the maximum scale: World Heritage Package.

Hi

You haven't heard us when we get going!!


I'm now on my last rounds before I go to bed ...... seeing whether there is anyhting knew on any of the baords, hence seeing your psoting



My membership is due up next month, and they're quoting £107.40 annual fee



but of course, there are records I can't acccess. Most of them I don't need .......... I just ask for help on the rare occasion that I do need to know something from one of those records.


Premium is quite adequate for what I need.


You can do a comparison of the different packages.



sylvia

Sylvia: "I'm now on my last rounds before I go to bed ......"

You sound like Florence Nightingale holding up a hurricane lamp while doing the last rounds of the wards before telling the night-shift matron to fetch you if anything new happens.

Sleep tight - Don't let the bed-bugs bite! :)

lol !!


I actually need a Florence Nightingale tonight to give me a very strong quick acting long lasting cough medicine ........ or I'm going to keep OH awake!

Get OH ('Onourable Husband) to make you a warm cup-o-tea with a tot of brandy, a squeeze of lemon, and a pinch of snuff.

Snuff? No that can't be right.

Try a pinch of powdered garlic in the tea with all the rest.

Good Luck with that.

Westward Ho!

garlic??????????



I'll end up in the bed by myself



oh wait ............................



that means I'd have more room






hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm




lol!