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I have a problem, which I hope someone can help me sort out!

My husband's father, George Reginald Rice (born Llandilo, Wales 1916, married Dorothy May Whitehead in Calverton, Notts 1940) wrote down his family tree before he died in 1989.

George's father was William Rice (middle name possibly John)

The tree states that William was born 1881, siblings Catharine Jane, Henry, Florence, George, Ernest and Samuel.

William's parents were George Rice (1843 - siblings Sarah Anne, John and Mary) and Charlotte Stevenson.

William's grandparents were Henry Rice (1811? - siblings Thomas, Samuel, John, Mary and Catharine) and Anne ?.

George Reginald Rice's parents, William Rice and Florence West, had 10 children named Rice. Samuel (1912), Ernest (1914), George (1916), Catharine (1917) and William (1919) born in Llandilo, Wales and Albert (1921), Roland (1923), Frederick (1926), James (1929) and Joseph (1931) born in Southwell, Notts.

I cannot find a marriage between William and Florence.

I estimate they were both born around 1880-1885, but don't know where, although I have found a William born in Barton in Fabis and a Florence in Basford, but I can't prove it is them.

Florence West had a sister Emmie (unmarried) and possibly another sibling.

I thought I had my tree all correct until a woman contacted me through Genes recently to say that her grandfather was William Rice, 1881, born in Barton in Fabis. Strangely she has exactly the same ancestors for William as I have, except that he was married to a Lillian Wilkinson in 1916! She has a marriage certificate.

We are both now very confused about William and have spent a lot of time trying to sort this out.

Either the family tree I have from George was traced by someone else who got William's ancestors wrong or William was leading a double life!

Can anyone help?

I would say it's far better to start again tracing back from George Reginald's birth certificate, without the written tree.
If one person has wires crossed and passes it on, they stay crossed.

Hi,Do you know what year's William and Florence Died..and where ?

Cass

Michael is right - you absolutely have to start with George's birth cert.

It's possible Florence had been married before and married Rice under a different surname, for instance. It's also possible they just weren't married, one of them having an existing marriage, for instance. Or the names Florence and William could have been their middle names ...

If you do know their death details, as Cassidy said, that would also be very helpful.

There isn't much point in you and the woman with that William trying to sort it out -- you've picked him at random, so there's an excellent chance that he simply isn't yours.

Unless she picked him at random ... . I guess the question would be what documentation she has of hers.

Florence's death?

Name: Florence E Rice
Death Registration Month/Year: 1951
Age at death (estimated): 64
Registration district: Southwell
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 3c
Page: 684

= dob about 1887

There's no William Rice death in Southwell reg dist, though.

There's always the possibility of mistranscriptions hiding the marriage -- e.g.:

Marriages Sep 1912
RICE William C Hill St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 1136

Marriages Sep 1912
Hill Florence J Rice St.Geo.H.Sq. 1a 1138

(That isn't likely them, but it shows the kind of problem -- the page number for one of them has been mistranscribed, so they don't show up on a search for William Rice marrying Florence, e.g.)

Thank you for your responses and I fully understand the problems I face, but I find the research fascinating and I love the challenge of finding where and when William was born and died!

I know I need to get a birth certificate for George, but sadly funds are a little low at the moment, so I'm having to wait. I live in New Zealand so I can't visit churches or record places in England.

A woman in England did some research for me and found George and his siblings born to Rice-West in Llandilo and Southwell so we know that is correct.

And we know from what George told us, that his parents were definitely William Rice and Florence West (maiden name). Florence's sister Emmie West was a spinster. As far as we know Florence was not married to anyone else.

I found George Rice 1916 on www.familysearch.org with William John Rice listed as father, but no mother's name.

If the Florence E Rice death in 1951 is the mother, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were married, she could have just called herself Rice for the sake of her children.

Or maybe William died during the war and Florence married one of William's brothers!

I've thought of all the "what ifs!"

Thanks again,
Patricia

Hi Patricia,You say you've had contact with a GR member who has the marriage cert for a William Rice to Lilian Wilkinson,1916.

Did you ask for all the detail's..i.e age's of both,occupation's,father's name's etc etc

Cass

All the dates and names on her tree matched what George had written down for me, except for William being married to Lilian. That's when the confusion started!

Patricia

Hi Patricia,I'm only going by the marriage certificate,which you said your contact has.

Do you know what Williams occupation was ?..it should be on the cert.

You need to ask your contact,when her William died, and where.

I've followed the information you've given and traced back....This William was born in Nottinghamshire.


What I can't understand is why the family birth's started in Llandilofawr and then back to Nottinghamshire.

That's why I'm interested in his occupation and given address on cert etc etc....do you know who the witness's were?

Cass

That's what I was getting at too when I said back there: "I guess the question would be what documentation she has of hers."

She could be completely off the wall. It happens. When I first joined here I was delighted to find someone had grx2 grandparents of mine I'd never heard of in her tree. I embraced them. Then *I* did the work she had never done, and discovered she'd picked a totally random Richard and Mary and made them my gr-grfather's parents. Well, they weren't.

So this William may belong to your other person, he may belong to you, he may belong to neither of you, he may be the same one and didn't marry any Lilian at all ... gotta get some info to try to figure it out. Mind, she says he's her grandfather, and she ought to know who her grandmother was, so we should maybe assume he's hers.

If the marriage certificate is available, then it should have his age, his occupation, his father's name and his occupation, and his address, and witness names, as Cass says. Any of which could be the essential clue to sorting it out.


The big problem here is that without the birth certificate of a known child, every effort could be wasted. If I give up smoking for a couple of days and send you the proceeds?


Oh, what fun!

George Reginald Rice
Birth: 1916 [Calverton, Nottingham, England]
Father: William John Rice
Marriages:
Spouse: Dorothy May Whitehead
Marriage: 08 JUN 1940 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Messages:
Record submitted after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church. No additional information is available. Ancestral File may list the same family and the submitter.


Hey, I wonder whether that's the same idiot Mormon who screwed up *my* Calverton people a century earlier!

What it looks like is that person had George's marriage certificate. It has the basic info from a marriage certificate -- date, place, spouse's full names and person's father's name, and DOB calculated from age at time of marriage. Then we have the assumed birth place.

Of course, the question always is: did the person who got married give their real age and father's name? ;) Age looks good, but the father's name is never gospel.

My husband (Steve)'s father was George Rice (1916 Llandilo-1989 Lowdham). Wife Dorothy Whitehead (1920).
Her father was George Rice (1928 Barton-in-Fabis-2000 Stamford). Wife Jean Barker (1930).

This is where the coincidences started and what George wrote down:

(Steve's Grandfather) - William Rice (birth not known or where). William's siblings Florence, Henry, Catharine, George, Ernest, Samuel. Wife Florence West.
(Her Grandfather) - William Rice (1881 Barton-in-Fabis -1939 Barton) a clerk in the lace trade from Barton. William's siblings Florence, Henry, Catharine, Ethel. Wife Lilian Wilkinson.

(Steve's Grt Grandfather) - George Rice (1843). George's siblings Sarah Anne, John, Mary. Wife Charlotte Stevenson.
(Her Grt Grandfather) - George Rice (1844 - 1925). George's siblings Sarah, John, Mary, William, Catharine, Thomas, Henry. Wife Charlotte Stevenson.

(Steve's Grt Grt Grandfather) - Henry Rice (1811). Henry's siblings Catharine, Mary, Thomas. Wife Anne (c1811).
(Her Grt Grt Grandfather) - Henry Rice (1809). Henry's siblings Catharine, Mary, Thomas, John, Samuel. Wife Anne Newton (1819).

Steve's Grt Grt Grt Grandfather) - Thomas Rice (1760). Wife Elizabeth Pole (1771).
(Her Grt Grt Grt Grandfather) - Thomas Rice (1760). Wife Elizabeth Pole (1771).

I'm just going to doodle. Got me a Florence West born in Nottinghamshire with a sister Emily. Have you been over her already, Patricia?


1901

Name: Florence West
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1885
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John T
Mother's Name: Emily
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Balsall Heath
County/Island: Worcestershire
Registration district: Kings Norton

John T West 53 - painter - Wellingborough
Emily West 53 - Hereford
Nellie Chadners 26 - daughter - Birmingham
Minnie West 18
Florence West 16
Hilda Chadney 9 months - grdaughter
Ada A Davies 30 - daughter
Arthur Davies 32
Elsie Davies 7
Arthur L Davies 3 months


1891 in same place

John P West 45
Emily West 45
Nellie West 16
Emily West 8 - born Nottingham
Florence West 6


Births Dec 1884
West Florence Elizabeth Nottingham 7b 344

No Emily, and the Emma born 1883 is accounted for.

Births Mar 1883 ?
WEST Amelia Emily Nottingham 7b 367


editing on Friday

Marriages Sep 1909
HANDS Lewis King's N. 6c 683
WEST Florence Elizabeth King's N. 6c 683

1911

HANDS FLORENCE ELIZABETH 1885 26 Kings Norton Worcestershire
HANDS LEWIS 1882 29

No children in 1911, and no children born after 1911.
Can't fnd a death (or remarriage) for Lewis Hands (including at CSGC WWI deaths).
Also can't find a birth for him except for

Births Mar 1878
Hands Lewis Sidney Aston 6d 416

which has to be that one in 1911 because there's only one Lewis Hands marriage ever, 1909, and no other birth to fit. Can anybody check the 1911 to see his place of birth?

No marriage of a matching Rice and Hands.
No death of a matching Florence E/Elizabeth Hands.


Bit of an interesting one, though (they may not all be the same person, I just offer them all for info -- they are all male):

HANDS Unknown 1911 London Mozambique Beira
HANDS A L 1876 1933 Southampton South Africa Cape
HANDS L 1885 1923 London Mozambique Beira
HANDS L 1876 1925 London South Africa Cape
HANDS L 1875 1929 London South Africa Cape




There's something odd about the John & Emily West household.

There are two older married daughters in the 1901 census. I can't find the household or people in 1881.

The only marriage that fits daughter Ada in 1901 is:

Marriages Sep 1891
? Davies Arthur Manning Aston 6d 492
? Jennings Ada Rose Aston 6d 492
Leckington Henry Aston 6d 492
Timmins Annie Aston 6d 492

Births Jun 1869
JENNINGS Ada Rose Birmingham 6d 146

but she is probably "Ada B" in 1871 with a father John who doesn't match ours. Yes, she's Ada Rose in 1891 with the same parents as 1891. Who the heck is daughter Ada A Davies in 1901? She's old enough to have flown in 1891, but where is she in 1881?

For the other daughter, Nellie:

Marriages Sep 1898
Borg Ernest Andrew King's N. 6c 839
? Chadney Frederick King's N. 6c 839
CLARKE Sarah Rone King's N. 6c 839
? Marshall Nellie King's N. 6c 839

No birth that seems to fit (as Marshall, Jennings or West). Birth of her daughter Hilda Chadney is registered. Who the heck is daughter Nellie Chadney in 1901? She's there in 1891, but can't find her before that.


None of these people are anywhere in 1881.

There has to be a blended family here of some kind, but I can't figger it out. ;)


Yes!

Marriages Sep 1884
HOLTHAM Sarah Jane Atherstone 6d 524
> Marshall Emily Atherstone 6d 524
MILLS Henry Atherstone 6d 524
> WEST John Atherstone 6d 524

explaining the big gap between Nellie and Florence in 1891. Nellie was Emily's daughter.

Might this Emily West have been born a Marshall?

Births Mar 1883
MARSHALL Emily Basford 7b 248

1911?

MARSHALL EMILY 1882 29 Nottingham Nottinghamshire

I've deleted my attempt at matching up that list of names because I'd misapprehended whose siblings were whose!

And I've deleted the info that related to the John and Emily West household in the previous post and added it to that one, above.



For info:

Marriages Sep 1916
Rice William Wilkinson Loughbro' 7a 268a
Wilkinson Lilian M Rice Loughboro 7a 268a

Sorry, I think I must have misled you by the way I wrote my last notes. I've edited it and hope it reads better!

(Steve's) William's siblings (not George's siblings) were Catharine Jane (1872), Henry (1873), Florence (1876), George, Ernest and Samuel (1869).
(Her) William's siblings were Catharine (1872), Henry (1873), Florence (1875), Ethel (1878).

She's got Charles (1921) and George (1928) as William and Lilian's children. They were married in Loughborough 1916.

I have searched for Florence West. I made an assumption that she was born in Basford because everything else fit, but I've never been sure. Steve says she lived in Hoveringham in her later years.

I found a Florence West on the 1881 census (b.1880) in Basford with siblings Anne and Arthur. Parents: Harriett and George West. There's no Emmie born at that time.

There's a Florence West married in Basford 1899 and a William Rice married in Basford 1901.

I can't ask this other woman anything yet as she's stuck in Florida trying to fly home to England! Her immediate relatives on her tree are all hidden. She has sent for William's birth certificate.

Aren't you necessarily going to have the same siblings for your "Williams" - since they're actually the same William and the info you have is just from picking him and assembling info about him?

Or do you have that list of siblings for "Steve's" William from some independent source??

We really just can't seem to get a handle on what's going on here, I think! Me, I'm going to bed. ;)

Well, my friend doesn't think it's the same William as hers. Hers married Lilian Wilkinson in 1916 and had 2 children and mine married? Florence West and had 10 children between 1912 and 1931.

That's why I think he was leading a double life if it is the same guy!

Patricia, you just aren't answering the questions to help us understand what's going on.

>>> do you have that list of siblings for "Steve's" William from some independent source??

Okay, never mind, it came from the handwritten tree by your George Reginald Rice before he died, got it.

Hi Patricia,Your husband has said that Florence,in her later year's was living in Hoveringham.

Doe's he know the approx year's ?

Cass

If her William was a clerk in the lace trade in Barton (I'm not clear yet - where is this Barton?) the possibilitiy of him having a double life and a lot of children in Wales and then Nottinghamshire seems just rather remote, I think.