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Re: John Powell, 58, Rutland Street, Hulme - 'Queens Vaults'.

I've only just got down to Manchester Central Library today and managed to have a look at the Licensing Register for the above address.
My Grandfather John Powell was the licensee from 3 Dec 1908 until 22 July 1920. It looks as if he could have been sacked or lost his licence as the register shows convictions for allowing the premises to be used for betting purposes and hefty fines totalling £25 were given. Does anyone know whether these would have been actual court proceedings and if so where any records might be kept ?
The register confirms that the owners of the property were JW Lees, Middleton Junction & the 'Beer only' licence was originally issued in 1857. I'll try writing to them again with this additional information and see if I have any joy.
I've still not got any further with finding John's actual birth details so I've not been able to go any further there.
John & Elizabeth's son was also called John and John (my grandfather) died in Dec 1929 in Tontine Street, Salford.

do you have any children's names of John & Elizabeth?

Could he actually have been registered as Jonathon?

I found a probate index of a Jonathon Powell of 42 tyler St Salford wd 5-11-1929

Gail,
I've just had a reply from JW Lees saying they can't trace 'Queens Vaults' on their records. I'll have to recheck that info - I got it from the Salford History forum. The actual address I have is 58, Rutland St, Hulme.
Really hope you've not had a wasted journey.

Gail - that would be really great if you're sure it's no trouble - they haven't responded to either email or snail mail.

Ann - good idea about the probate indices - that's new territory for me but I'm sure the staff will point me in the right direction as they have before. I don't think I'll be able to get there this week tho.

While you are at the library it might also be worth looking at the probabte indices to see if you can find wills - either for John in 1929 or for James. You may have to trawl for that one but worth a try.

Unfortunately it is me on lancslist - I posted it ages ago and have had no response.
I will certainly try M/cr Library newspaper collection and possibly give the Nicholina Powell connection a go as well.
I'm wondering whether to try for one of the possible John Hindley birth certificates - whether it will further the cause of any connection or not ?

is this you on this site - if not worth an email?

http://www.lancslist.com/lancslist.php?Single=P

POWELL
55343 John Salford @ 1875 - 1929 Email Submitter

Just another thought as 1874 is not that long ago. Have you tried looking for his birth in on-line newspapers? I know Lancs libraries have access to several historical newspapers and I think Manchester papers are one of them.
If you are going to a Manchester library they might also have them on film for you to trawl through. If you can find an announcement of his birth it may give you a better idea of exactly where he was born to try to find a baptism record. The word s'born Manchester' cover such a wide area and could even mean what we now know as parts of Cheshire.

The George Powell household in 1901 in Coppenhall Monks

George Powell 56 - still pattern maker
Elizabeth Powell 57
Frederick W Powell 23
Annie E Powell 22


But dratted if I can find the household in 1891.


There are a couple of John Powells born in Crewe who could be that John in 1901, though.

Isabel Teresa Hindley formerly Armour -- mother of the Hindley children who are called Powell in 1891 -- subsequently married (we assume) James Powell, and the Powell children in the household in 1891 were really the Hindley children. (Except for the chlid born in Denmark).

It looks like Isabel was born Armour, married Hindley, and then had children with Alfred Henry Healey. And then married / had a child with James Powell.

There's no Armour-Hindley, Hindley-Healey or Armour-Healey marriage in the GRO index.

Again, that doesn't mean, as lancashire ann has said, that they were your Powells. It is jsut that this is the only John Powell we have identified of about the right age with the right father's name (stepfather actually, it seems).

And the info you do have about your James Powell doesn't match well with that family, as lancashire ann also says.

The thing to do is try to rule out that family.

Nobody here at GR seems to have Alfred Hindley or Mabel Hindley in their trees. (The Mabel Hindley born in Hoylake is a different one.)

Someone does have a Nicholina Powell born in Denmark in 1880. It might be worth trying to contact that person to see whether she's connected with the circus Powells.


Now, if John was born abt 1874 and his father was alive in 1881, it might be possible to find the father by occupation, since 1881 can be searched that way (without having to download the image for every possible Powell to find out what his occupation was).

Here's about the only possible match in that year:

Name: George Powell
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Wem, Shropshire, England
>> Occupation: Exm Pattern Maker
(I think it's "E & M", a notation added to the original record)

Name: John H. Powell
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Crewe, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Monks Coppenhall
Street address: 87 Nantwich Road

George Powell 36
Elizabeth Powell 38
Thomas G. Powell 11
John H. Powell 7
Fredrick W. Powell 3
Anne E. Powell 1
Frances Powell

Today I've received a birth certificate for Alfred Thomas Hindley, born 12 May 1875 in Little Bolton, Lancashire, to Alfred Henry Healey (musician) and Isabel Teresa Hindley formerly Armour.
I'm still not quite sure what this is telling me ?

I have wondered about the possibility of John getting his father's name wrong as he was already deceased when John married and could have been for some time. Unfortunately I don't have any info on John's mother or any siblings.
If they did move from another area how would I know I'd got the right family - as Powell is quite a common welsh name ?
i have got John's grave papers and there is just himself and Elizabeth in the grave at Weaste. Unfortunately there is no headstone which might have given me more information.
I'm really gutted about this because this is the reason I started my family history a couple of years ago and I've got nowhere ! I have got more info on my Dad's Mum but that has been difficult as well.
I have got a lot further with my mother's family so that keeps me going when I get fed up.

Thre is of course always the posiblity that John remember his father's name wrong esp if he was known as james but was actually eg Joseph James or that his mother was unmarried and he made up the name. Don't like that theory really as the occupation seems too details not to be real. Maybe he was born somewhere completely different where there were other iron works eg Flintshire. I do know of ironworkers who moved from Holywell to Salford.
Do you know where John & Elizabeth are buried - could the grave be a family grave.

The phrase 'clutching at straws' come to mind!

Hi Lancashireann,
I know what you mean but the problem I originally had was that I couldn't trace a John Powell with a father named James on any of the censuses.
I've also got quite a few birth certificates for the John Powell's born in manchester between 1874 - 1876 and none of them have a father called James. I'm at the point now where I feel I have to disprove the possible Grimsby connection so I'll see what the certificates have to say. Have you any other ideas how I can go forward with this ?
Suew

I'm still not convinced that the Hindley line is correct. Did I miss something or did that connection come purely from the Grimsby census family. I can't reconcile an iron foundry worker (pattern moulder) which was a common job in Salford with a circus connection. There are many James Powell's in the Salford / Manchester area.

Gail,

The address I used for JW Lees was Greengate Brewery, Middleton Junction, M24 2AX - had I missed anything out ?
I would be really interested in info from John Rylands Library as I'm hoping to visit there in a few weeks - but I've no idea what they hold.
As far as the trade directories are concerned I have looked at Slaters and found John Powell from 1910 - 1920 at the Queens Vaults, Rutland Street then from 1922 - 1930 at Tontine Street where he's shown as a watch repairer and actually died there in 1929.
I was really thrilled to find information about him and his family there but I'd really love to take it further back and find info on his dob etc. EvieBeavie has come up with some really interesting stuff and I'm waiting for certificates to try to clarify things.
Suew

Fun!

Without the birth cert, you won't know what Isabel's surname was -- whether Hindley was her married surname, what her birth surname was, who her husband was -- so probably not much more you can do with her til then.

I always run into something I wish I'd remembered (if I do remember it) -- it strikes me that I encountered Bussiere or some version of it while searching around for Powells, but now I can't remember what it might have been. If anything. ;)

My ISP has been playing up so badly tonight I don't know whether I'll even be able to get this posted, so I won't try this:

www.lancashirebmd.org.uk

to look for more info about the various events, but you might want to try.

Hi there - I'm still looking. I know this is jumping the gun a bit but from your info I noticed that JA is shown on the 1851 census as Anthony James so I looked this up on the IGI and found the following

Anthony James Powell
bap. 31 Oct 1830 Boston, Lincolnshire
Father John Powell
Mother Jennet

Also looked for his marriageon Free BMD

Anthony Powell m Matilda Valentine de Bussiere on 7 Mar 1848 at Manchester Cathedral

haven't found any info on Isabel tho.

Yes- I did know about the possible circus connection - I looked out of desperation ! However, other people that I asked locally didn't seem to give it any credence and as I couldn't find any other info under Powell I didn't go any further with it, but with your info on the Hindley name I'll certainly try to get Alfred's birth certificate and see what that gives me.

As far as John's job as a Beer Retailer I've contacted the brewery (JW Lees) for the location of any of their archives but they haven't got back to me. I presume there must have been some sort of licence but I don't really know where to look and whether it would give any other info - possibly dob ?

Anyhow, I suppose my tracking down the children and identifying them as born Hindley rather than Powell adds something to it. So yes, I'd order a certificate -- I would order Alfred or Mabel, since they are clearly identifiable, especially Alfred, and check whether Isabel is the mother, or James Powell is the father. Then pick a John and try.

John and Elizabeth both giving hokey ages makes sense - him to make himself not so much younger than her, her to make herself not so much older than him.

I've had no luck finding the other children marrying or in censuses under either surname after 1891.