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For what it's worth, that William Royle, who is likely of the most supreme irrelevance, was in or next to the Kirk household in 1841:

George Kirk 50
Martha Kirk 55
Sarah Kirk 20
Mary Kirk 20
Martha Kirk 3
Richard Olshan [Oldham] 20
William Ragle 14
Civil Parish: Ashton Under Lyne

(Spotted him when I looked on the page for the Kirks, just to see whether there were any Royles in the vicinity, before I saw how he'd been mistranscribed. I've corrected his name.)


So now we should search for Ragles ...

Speaking of mistranscriptions -- Manchester, 1841:

Abra Rayle 30
Hannah Rayle 44
Sarah Rayle 10

There are *gazillions* of "Rayle"s in Lancashire in 1841. Including Belly Rayle. ;)

A couple of Ragles. And one household of Rogles. And several Royals.

Who was Ruth Frith's father, from the marriage cert, and his occupation, and do we know where she was in 1841?

I can't identify her. If we could find her, we might be able to spot John in the vicinity.

(I do see now that Lesley has said John was a farmer when he married, so the 1841 William and John look unlikely.)

Interesting William in 1851:

Name: William Royle
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Son In Law Head (Head)
Spouse's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Ashton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Ashton Under Lyne

William Royle 30 - ag lab
Mary Royle 33
Thomas Royle 3
Mary Royle 9 Mo

The actual rest of the household is:

Martha Kirk 66 - farmer of 15 acres
Sarah Kirk 37
Martha Kirk 4
James Kirk 2

(William was likely in line to take over the farm?)

Marriages Sep 1845
Cubbin Edward Manchester 20 775
Ditchburn William Manchester 20 775
EDWARDS Hannah Manchester 20 775
KENYON Charles Manchester 20 775
> Kirk Mary Manchester 20 775
Pendlebury Sarah Manchester 20 775
> ROYLE William Manchester 20 775
SKELLON Sarah Manchester 20 775
SKELLOW Sarah Manchester 20 775


Born in Ashton under Lyne, married in Manchester, living in Ashton under Lyne, on his wife's family farm.

Our John was born in Ashton under Lyne and married in Manchester, and farmed in Derbyshire, where his wife was from.

I'm not conversant with the geography / demographics. Would this -- born in Ashton under Lyne, married in Manchestrer -- be common?


A similar John and William Royle in Manchester in 1841:

John Collins 59
Sarah Collins 59
William Royle 20
John Royle 20
Alice Royle 15

possibly with mother and stepfather?

... but they're weavers.

Maybe just waiting to marry well. ;)

Looks like your first Abram in 1841:

> Abram Royle 50
> Mary Royle 40
Ann Royle 20
Abran Royle 20
Alice Royle 15
Elizabeth Royle 9
Samuel Royle 7
Samuel Clough 80

(I think I had mistook myself and thought your 1841 Abram had wife Hannah ... and now I think I'm just confusing myself ...)

The Ann and Abram in that household could have been closer to 15 than 20, and William could have been a son who had flown ...

Except that a search of the batch for that record, C005585, shows only an Edmund 1820.

Oh, and later -- on a search for births in Lancashire, parents Abraham Royle and Mary, 1820-2840 -- in batch C005586, an Alice 1825 and a Samuel 1835.

They're in the 1841 household, and yes, they could be the same family as William and Edmund.

Also -- Ann 1813 and Sarah 1811, batch C005584.

Only one Abraham Royal marriage in Lancashire 1800-1820:

ABRAHAM ROYLE
Spouse: MARY GREENWOOD
Marriage: 05 NOV 1810 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Batch No.: M005464


But was one of those in the census born in Wales ...?


Hang on, I missed a couple of births with parents Abraham Royle and Harriet:

MARY ROYLE
Christening: 05 MAY 1822 Saint Michael, Ashton Under Lyne, Lancashire, England
Father: ABRAHAM ROYLE
Mother: HARRIET
Batch No.: C005585

ABRAHAM ROYLE
Christening: 12 NOV 1826 Saint Michael, Ashton Under Lyne, Lancashire, England
Father: ABRAHAM ROYLE
Mother: HARRIET
Batch No.: C005586

Those two are in the same batches as Abraham-Mary births.

John 1819 was batch C097893 .

Just incase William si Johns brother???

WILLIAM ROYLE Pedigree
Male


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 25 MAY 1823 Saint Michael, Ashton Under Lyne, Lancashire, England

Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: ABRAHAM ROYLE Family
Mother: MARY


Dee x

Hi Evie,

No unfortunately Abraham is a silk weaver.

Think the best info so far is yours with Abraham and Harriet as parents from IGI.

Dee x

Dee -- does the record for Abram with wife Hannah actually say Hannah, or might it be Harriet? Is he a farmer, perchance?

From excess thread number 1; I'll do the copying since Lesley says she is going to bed.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1123783

Thanks Denise and Evie, really kind of you to check it up for me-much appreciated
Hadn't seen John Taylor Aldred! thats a new one on me!
Iv'e now found all of John and ruths children,
Ann
Sarah
Harriett- my gt grandmother
John
william
Elizabeth
Thanks for your help,Think its off to bed time now,best regards lesley

From excess thread number 2:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1123775

Hi you 3 that have kindly answered me, Thankyou so much for the quick replys, the occupation on the certificate of Abraham is a Farmer.I know also that John was also a farmer who when he married Ruth, they moved to chapel en le Frith in Derbyshire to Lane End,Combs and he farmed there for the rest of his living life.-Possibly after life Too!! -only joking-but you never know???
I did see the IGI for George and ann which is who I originally thought were his parents but the marriage cert threw a spanner in that one!! love lesley


You can go ahead and delete them now.

Your John had a daughter Harriet. The IGI entry I posted above shows mother Harriott.

Hardly conclusive proof. ;) But a possible indication.

Sorry Evie, sorry Denise,
Didn't know to use that!! me thick!! no... really i'm sorry.Now I know,I will use this way always.I was off to bed but just noticed the message,so glad had chance to thankyou all and say sorryyyyyyyyy lesley

Lesley (not me)
has started 2 new threads also :-(

Evening Evie,

John Taylor Aldred is from the Frith side.

Ruth's sisters child.


Dee x

Lesley, pleeeease reply in the thread. It makes me absolutely insane (and I speak for others) to have to go check private messages and connect info up with threads.

Click the purple Reply button at the top and a box will open for composing a post. (How do you think we're doing this?!)

Leslie PMs her very nice thanks. You're welcome. ;)


Re previous post: "Out At Niece" would be out at nurse, I imagine. Perhaps Ruth had lost a child and was able to breasfeed.

1851:

Name: John Royle
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ruth
Gender: Male
Where born: Drhton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Chinley, Bugsworth, and Brownside

John Royle 35
Ruth Royle 29
Ann Royle 5
Sarah Royle 3
John Taylor Aldred 6 Mo -- Ancestry says "Out At Niece".
(I'm still on low-speed so somebody else will have to check that one out if you want!)

PM from Lesley;

Abraham was a farmer.


Dee x

Did you check the IGI for the new info?


JOHN ROYLE
Christening: 08 AUG 1819 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father: ABRAM ROYLE
Mother: HARRIOTT
Batch No.: C097893


Christenings weren't always immediately after birth. And people didn't always know their birthdates.

1861


Name: John Royle
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ruth
Gender: Male
Where born: Adston Under Lyne, Lancashire, England

Name: Ruth Royle
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Chapel En Le Frith, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Chapel En Le Frith

John Royle 45
Ruth Royle 38
Ann Royle 15- born Chinley, Derbyshire (I haven't checked the image)
Elizabeth Royle 8
William Royle 5
John Royle 3
John Beddall 24
John Houghton 19
Samuel Bowers 21



Marriages Mar 1844
ROYLE John Manchester 20 526
FRITH Ruth Manchester 20 526
(and other names)

Now, I'm not sure I want to go meddling in a Royle family ... ;)

Is this the IGI record in question?

JOHN ROYLE
Christening: 20 OCT 1816 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father: GEORGE ROYLE
Mother: ANN
Batch No.: C097892

It's an extracted parish record, so there was a John Royle w/ father George. Perhaps just not yours.

Another possible???

1851 England Census
about Abram Royle
Name: Abram Royle
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1796
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: Sale, Monmouthshire, Wales

Civil Parish: Ashton Under Lyne
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Stalybridge
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Lamp Lighter

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Ashton Under Lyne
Sub registration district: Hartshead
ED, institution, or vessel: 1c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
Abram Royle 55
Hannah Royle 54
Charles Addey 28
Mary Addey 29
Elizabeth Eckin 65
Allen Morrill 28
Ann Morrill 24
Anna Brownbill 45


Is there an Occupation on the certificate for Abraham??

Dee x

Possible???

1841 England Census
about Abram Royle
Name: Abram Royle
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1791
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Ashton Under Lyne
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: View Image

Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub registration district: Audenshaw and Droylsden
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Abram Royle 50
Mary Royle 40
Ann Royle 20
Abran Royle 20
Alice Royle 15
Elizabeth Royle 9
Samuel Royle 7
Samuel Clough 80

Hi anyone! help PLEASE! I originally thought that my ancestor John Royle b1816 Ashton under lyne was the son of George Royle.
Today I recieved his marriage cert to Ruth frith at St.Mary's Church in the Parish of Manchester on 12th Feb 1844 and it has his father as what looks like Abraham Royle.,which has now puzzled me!
This is mainly as the IGI through up parents George and ann with son John Christened 1816 in Cathedral M/c which made the year born agree with the 1881 census.
The only other info off the marriage cert is that both Ruth Frith and John Royle were living at the same address at the time of marriage which was Ashton Road,also the witnesses were William Royle and William Howard.
I have no other info on johns siblings,if any,or parents ,uncles or aunts etc.
Can anyone come up with a solution of how to tackle this please as i'm still relatively new at this,Any help would be VERY gratefully recieved,Lesley