Find Ancestors

Hi Janey, many thanks for further hard work. Very very interesting and I will take a look at all this and see whether I can get any other connections. Your help is really appreciated.

Rgds
Steve

This is the Griffiths household in 1891:

James Griffiths 33 - born Great Malvern, Worcestershire
Sarah Ann Griffiths 37
Mary Ann Griffiths 7 - born Manchester
Grace H Griffiths 3
William J Griffiths 1
Sarah Yeates 30 - lodger

The couple seems a little old not to have older children. Although any child 12+ could have been in service.

This could be them:

Marriages Dec 1878
CURTIS Sarah Ann Worcester 6c 432
GRIFFITHS James Worcester 6c 432

Don't see a Sarah Ann Curis birth / in 1871 to match though. No Sarah Ann anything was born in Paddington specifically 1852-1855.

1881 in Chorlton

Jas. Griffiths 24
Sarah Ann Griffiths 27


I do suspect that Violet's mother's connection with Mr. Treeves (if that he was) was a rather fleeting one.

It was quite common for an unmarried mother to name her daughter after herself (and/or her mother). Marguerita may just have been a fancification of Margaret. In the last bit of the 1800s and first bit of the 1900s, naming did change radically, with a lot of newfangled names becoming common and older names being abandoned.

(My grandmother Lily had to change her name to Lilian when she married in 1918, to suit my grandfather. I tracked down someone's grandmother here recently who married as Kathleen Lilian in the early 1900s, but had been born Kate Lily.)

We have a Griffiths - Treeves marriage, but I'm not seeing anything about it that looks related ...

Marriages Dec 1914
Griffiths Thomas J Treeves Fulham 1a 685
Treeves Mabel Griffiths Fulham 1a 685


edit, duh. Sarah Ann Griffiths wasn't actually a Griffiths ...

Just bits and pieces --

it's quite likely that the council paid the Griffiths to look after "nurse children", if they weren't relations.

I'd searched for Violet with "nurse" in the "relationship" box, thinking that would find "nurse child". Didn't expect it to be all one word, nursechild.

You might want to get Leonard Andrews's birth certificate to see whether he was a relation of Violet's.

In 1901, I think Sarah Griffiths is housekeeper to a bachelor. Her children are shown as boarders in the household. The other men are boarders as well; one is a cab driver and one is a railway policeman.

The head of household, Edward Wheeler - it's difficult to read his occupation. It's "[something] General". It is problaby Dealer General. A general dealer is usually a hawker, I think.

So there could have been an occupational connection with a travelling salesman (which could be a bit of a glorification of a hawker).

What I wonder is how accurate a name Violet's mother might have got for Violet's father. The name itself, let alone the spelling of the name. I have certainly searched using every wildcard and other trick I can think of, but not found any trace of anybody who sounds like a Cecil Treeves!

Janey, you are a star - so pleased that you find this mystery interesting - cab't wait to see if you unearth anything else.

Yours Steve

Yer kidding!

I'm going to have to look back over this carefully, but at the moment I have to dash off a bit of work, so will come back later (my time - probably after your bedtime. ;) )

Hi Janey - thank you sooo much. It is fantastic what you have found. My father used to talk about an Auntie Marie and Nanny Griffiths and my grandmother used to correspond with a lady who called herself "Your big sister Grace". I have paid to have to have a look at the 1911 enstry and I think that GRIFFITHS GEASE HELEN is actually Grace. It shows my gradmother Violet Higgins as "Nursechild" which after research have found is where a family is paid to look after a child usually because it was born out of wedlock. So this all ties in nicely. Question is of course where was her mother and father?

Interestingly from the 1901 census entry you found Sarah Griffith seems to be running a boarding house - did the mystery travelling salesman Cecil treeves stay there - meet margeret Higgins in Manchester and 9 months later my grandmother is born. Also I notice that sarah Griffiths was born in Paddington, London - relatively near to where most of the Treeves lived in London.

Who paid Sara to look after my grandmother - my guess is the Higgins would be from a relatively poor family around Chorlton, manchester, notorious around the turn of the century for poverty - so unlikely they would be paying - my guess is more likely from the Treeves in which case there may be a family connection - except in that case why did they call the child Violet Higgins and not Treeves that was on her birth certificate - so that may pint to the Higgins funding the arrangement.

Also I wonder where the name Marguerita came from - not traditional English name - my grandmother never used it her whole life - always called herself Violet - as you picked up on her marriage docs.

So still some really interesting questions. Any more detail you can add to this would be much appreciated - I feel that this is like a giant jigsaw and you have to put a lot of small pieces together to get to an answer.


many thanks again
Steve

I could be chasing a scarlet herring ...


1901

Name: Sarah A Griffiths
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Housekeeper
Gender: Female
Where born: Paddington, London, England

Civil parish: South Manchester

Edward Wheeler 54 - General Dealer
Sarah A Griffiths 47
Marie Griffiths 17
Grace Griffiths 13
Ralph Wardle 29
James Glynn 26

Hmm.

I've discovered a trick for finding everybody in a household with an individual in the 1911.

On advanced search:

First name: begins with (run through every letter of the alphabet)
Place of residence: specify
Living with: First and last names of individual of interest


-- that's how I found Sarah Ann Griffiths -- first name "A", living in Chorlton with Violet Higgins.


Next up:

ANDREW LEONARD 1911 2 WEEKS Chorlton Lancashire

That seems to be the sum total.

Did the Griffiths women (mother and daughter?) take in foster/nurse children?

Was Marguerita Violet Treeves not reared with her mother / other family?


Oh, fine. There's no match for a Leonard Andrew born 1911, either. Ah, of course:

Births Jun 1911
Andrews Leonard Chorlton 8c 794

... and he died too:

Deaths Jun 1912
Andrews Leonard 1 Chorlton 8c 947

Actually, she married as Violet, so this might more likely be her in 1911:

HIGGINS VIOLET 1908 3 Chorlton Lancashire

There's no one named Higgins living with her.

But these people are living with a Violet Higgins:

GRIFFITHS GEASE HELEN 1888 23 Chorlton Lancashire (presumably Grace?)
GRIFFITHS SARAH ANN 1854 57 Chorlton Lancashire

Hm.

... that could be this Violet Higgins:

Births Jun 1908
Higgins Violet Manchester 8d 283

but one would expect her to be shown as aged 2. And anyhow, oops, she died:

Deaths Sep 1908
HIGGINS Violet 0 Manchester 8d 175

So I'd look at that Violet Higgins in 1911!

I might guess, in 1911:

HIGGINS MARGARET 1908 3 Manchester Lancashire

There are too many Higgins-s in Manchester living with a Margaret Higgins to sort them out without paying to look.

One of these could be mother Margaret:

HIGGINS MARGARET 1893 18 Manchester Lancashire
HIGGINS MARGARET 1881 30 Manchester Lancashire

Hi Steve,
Darned if I know!!!
I had a try at finding her in the 1911 census,but had no luck.
Sorry! I'll keep my eyes open...(if that's any consolation).

Maureen

Hi Maureen, yes correct it is the marriage certificate - list C Treeves father as deceased. No hopeful witnesses either. It just seems really odd that if someone made up a name it would be so unusual - what do you think?

Thanks & Best Rgds Steve

Hi Steve,
I presume this is your grandparents marriage cert?
Marriages Jun 1927

TREEVES Violet Walker Manchester S. 8d 399

Does it list Cecil as her father again? Any witnesses that look promising??
Maureen

His occupation was shown as "travelling salesman"

Rgds
Steve

here she is David
Name: Marguerita Violet Treeves
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Chorlton

County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 831



what was fathers occupation on the cert?

Marguerita Violet Treeves born in Manchester in 1907. Interestingly I cannot find any Treeves whatsoever born in Manchester apart from her, so I am guessing that's not where he came from. It is a very unusual name and the vast majority seem to be from Brentford area, London.

Thanks for helping
Steve

Where are we looking?

My grandmother Marguerita Violet Treeves, born 1907 shows her father as Cecil Treeves and her mother as Margaret Treeves nee Higgins. I can't find any trace of a Cecil Treeves anywhere, nor can I find any record of a marriage - that maybe not surprising but who was the guy on the birth certificate?. I even looked at Charles Treeves but couldn't find anything. Can any of you fantastically talented and speedy reseachers help?

many Thanks Steve