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Im glad I persisted.Confirmed I think

1891 England Census
about Susan Holgate
Name: Susan Holgate
[Susan Parsley]
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Walter
Mother's Name: Emma
Gender: Female
Where born: Great Waltham, Essex, England

Civil parish: High Ongar
Ecclesiastical parish: Ongar
Town: High Ongar
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: Ongar
Sub-registration district: Bobbingworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Walter Holgate 39
Susan Holgate 31
John Arthur Holgate 13
Walter Fred Holgate 6
Florence Holgate 1
Emma Parsley 59 MIL
Emily Cowell 9

Rose

"Daughter-in-law" was in fact the term used for a stepdaughter at the time.

Anne marie,

The marriage Paveley/Lodge.........1861 census Elizabeth HODGE, could this be his Step Daughter as opposed to "Daur-in-Law which we know is impossible at the age of 9!

Annx

Well this is the census for John Paveley (the name has changed spelling inbetween the censuss.

Name John Paveley
Age 32
Estimated Year of Birth 1819
Relationship to Head of Household SERVANT
Occupation MALTSTER
Address New House
District Pleshey, Chelmsford
Parish
Administrative County Essex
Birth Place Sawbridgeworth
Birth County HERTFORDSHIRE

In 1861 - he was an Ag Lab - which I took to mean Agricultural labourer. The place of birth matches though.

Looking at the original census page there is also a Emma Mead there aged 20 who was a housemaid, wonder if this was who became his wife?

Thanks
Anne-Marie

Checked now, me and my fanciful romantic notions, lol, found John Paveley getting married now.
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1854 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LODGE Emma Chelmsford 4a 178
PAVELEY John Chelmsford 4a 178

and on from there.

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1883 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everitt George Chelmsford 4a 358
HOLGATE Walter Chelmsford 4a 358
MARTIN Annie Chelmsford 4a 358
PAVELEY Susannah Chelmsford 4a 358

Hi Quinsgran

Thanks for your persistance in helping me, you obviously have alot more exprerience than me!!

Seems we have a match. I looked at an image of the full census

John Paveley - Head - 47 (I think it says ) and also birthplace - Herts Sawbridgeworth.

Emma O - Wife - 30 - Essex - Gt Waltham
Elizabeth Hodge - Dau in law (i think!!!) - 9 - Essex - Gt Waltham
Peter - Son - 7 - Essex - Gt Waltham
George - Son - 5 - Essex - Pleshey
Hannah - Dau - 3 - Essex - Pleshey
Susan - Dau - 2 - Essex - Gt Waltham
Arthur - Son 3 mnths - Rayleigh

So it seems more than likely that this is her. Would you agree?

Thanks
Anne-Marie

The birth cert will certainly confirm her mothers name
Pleshey is 2 miles from Gt Waltham so Susannah Paveley cant be ruled out.

Can you look for her on earlier census

1861
John Pavely 1814
Emma 1831.
Peter 1854
George 1856
Hannah 1858
SUSAN PAVELY 1859
Arthur 1861

living Rayleigh Rochford.
I cant check the full census to see places of birth or occupation


1851 census.
John Paveley 1819

living Pleshey Chelmsford

Can someone check to see his details and if he has the same occupation as in 1861

Hi and thanks to everyone who has taken the time to help and provide extra information for me.

As far as I know it was Gower Vincent Turner that is what is on my mother birth certificate. Yes he was married twice, firstly to Florence Holgate, who died giving birth or very shortly afterwards and then Doris E Clift.

I have looked at the possibility that Susan Holgate was never married. However I still cannot find an entry for her birth that says that she was born in Pleshey which is what it says on the census in 1901. There is a Susan Holgate born in 1859 in Ongar, this would match her age. There is a death record for a Susan Holgate.

Deaths Dec 1929 (89%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holgate Susan 69 Chelmsford 4a 616

This would also tie in with an age of 41 on the 1901 Census.

I think the best thing I can do is send of for a birth certificate of my Grandmother and see what is on it and maybe that will give me some more clues.

Thanks again
Anne-Marie

This is Gower Vincent Turner, for info.

Births Sep 1892
Turner Gower Vincent Billericay 4a 458

Marriages Dec 1927
Clift Doris E (Turner) Chelmsford 4a 1451
Turner Gower V (Clift) Chelmsford 4a 1451


Can you explain where you saw the connection with Florence? Just asking! -- oh, possibly a second marriage for Turner after Florence's death? --

Deaths Dec 1925 ?
Turner Florence 35 Chelmsford 4a 650


Also - deaths to account for two Susan Holgates:


Deaths Dec 1929
Holgate Susan 69 Chelmsford 4a 616
= born c1860

Deaths Mar 1935
Holgate Susan 77 Chelmsford 4a 699
= born c1858

Gower Vincent Turner? Maybe George Vincent Turner?

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Marriages Dec 1918
Holgate Florence (Turner) Chelmsford 4a 1242
Turner George V (Holgate) Chelmsford 4a 1242


If you get that marriage certificate, it will give you Florence's father's name (assuming she knew it and stated it).

At least 6 Turner-Holgate births in Chelmsford 1920 onward, plus one in 1915. -- Ah, because:

Marriages Dec 1913
Holgate Ellen (Turner) Chelmsford 4a 1135
Turner Frederick D (Holgate) Chelmsford 4a 1135


You'll then be able to look for her father's marriage to Susan.

It is possible that Susan was unmarried rather than a widow as stated on the census.

There is a marriage for Susannah Paveley in 1883 june qt Chelmsford other name on page Walter Holgate


Perhaps
1881 census.
Emma Pavey widow 1832 Gt Waltham Essex occ laundress.
Susan Pavey dau 1858 Gt Waltham occ silk winder at factory
Arthur Pavey son 1878 Stanstead
Walter Holgate lodger 1852 Chelmsford occ journeyman carpenter

address Rolphs Yd Chelmsford

death.
Walter Holgate 1852 died 1898 mar qt Chelmsford Essex gro ref 4a 315

1901 census.
Arthur Pavely 1877 Chelmsford occ carpenter & joiner.
Ageatha 1881 London
Ada 1898 Chelmsford
Iris 1900 South End on Sea

living Prittlewell
You have to check if they are in the same household

There are 2 Susan Holgate in 1911 both age 50 and living in Chelmsford
1911 census.
Richard Holgate 1866
Susan 1861
Bertie 1894
Daisy Maud 1896
Albert Henry 1897

I did advanced search for Susan Holgate living Chelmsford to see who the second Susan was living with.

I used names beginning with method starting with A .Only hit was Richard Holgate and family. Im assuming Susan has been transcribed twice

Dont think that marriage of a Richard HOLGATE AND SUSAN ARE YOURS AS i CAN SEE THEM ON THE 1901 CENSUS TOGETHER AND YOUR SUSAN WAS A WIDOW THEN.

ANNX

Hi Ann

Ahh Pleshey, thanks, I did read the transcript of the census but still kept looking like Pleskey and I didnt have any idea what else it could be.

Anne-Marie

Hi Quinsgran

I have the rough dates of when Florence was born and died, she died in 1925, its Susan that im trying to track.

Thanks
Anne-Marie

Hi Ann

Thanks for that, it certainly gives me something to go on. Looks more than likely, as the Holgates and Turners seem to have been round the Chelmsford area.

Anne-Marie

I think the birthplace for Susan is Pleshey not Pleskey

Annx

Do you know when grandmother Florence died? If she died after 1969 her date of birth will be on the death reg.

There is a marriage in Chelmsford where the oldest child Florence was registered.......but would you belive it!

Richard Holgate and Susan Holgate Dec Q 1890 ref: 4a 607

Annx

Hi Gwyn

Thanks for your very quick reply. I feel a bit stupid as I didnt think that this was her married name and not maiden name, I will get the hang, only been doing this a couple of days now.

At the moment I dont know much more about her.

I am trying to track back my maternal family tree.

My Grandmother was a Florence Holgate, who was married to a Gower Vincent Turner. As far as I have made out, Florence was born 1891 to 1925.

Florence is in the 1901 Census as follows

Address 42 South Primrose Hill
Civil Parish Chelmsford
Rural District
Town or Village or Hamlet Chelmsford
Ecclesiastical Parish Chelmsford St Mary The Virgin
Parliamentary Borough or Division Mid Essex
County Borough, Municipal Borough or Urban District Chelmsford
Administrative County Essex

Householder 1
Name Bertie Holgate
Relation to Head of Family Son
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 6
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Essex Chelmsford
Language
Infirmity

Householder 2
Name Ellen Holgate
Relation to Head of Family Daughter
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 9
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Essex High Ongar
Language
Infirmity

Householder 3
Name Florence Holgate
Relation to Head of Family Daughter
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 10
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Essex Chelmsford
Language
Infirmity

Householder 4
Name Susan Holgate
Relation to Head of Family Head
Condition as to Marriage Widow
Age Last Birthday 41
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation Charwoman
Employment Status
Where Born Essex Pleskey
Language
Infirmity


Now I believe this is the right link as the age of Florence matches plus I know my mother was born on a house in Primrose Hill. So this is where I got the link for Susan from.

Thanks
Anne-Marie