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Hi I am unsure as to when he passed away. He was still alive in 1961 as that is when my nan and granddad spilt up.

When I have a little more time at the weekend I will search the death records.

So all the children were registered in the name of Sanson and Edmonds, indicating a child of Edmonds not married to the mother. I never found a Lavinia, but no matter.

census search results 1911 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

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EDMONDS, Clara Wife Married
23 years F 49 1862 Office Cleaner Kennington VIEW
EDMONDS, William Son Single M 21 1890 Engineer Bermondsey VIEW
EDMONDS, Maud Daughter Single F 18 1893 Machinist Bermondsey VIEW
EDMONDS, Mabel Daughter F 15 1896 Book Folder Bermondsey VIEW
EDMONDS, Alfred Son M 13 1898 School Bermondsey VIEW
EDMONDS, Lillian Daughter F 10 1901 School Bermondsey VIEW

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RG number:
RG14 Piece:
1767 Reference:
RG14PN1767 RG78PN62 RD23 SD2 ED5 SN24

Parish
Southwark St George

30 Rephidim Street, Weston Street, SE.


census search results 1911 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDMONDS, Alfred Head Married M 52 1859 Wood Turner Buckshamshrie VIEW
EDMONDS, Elizabeth Wife Married
18 years F 44 1867 Sussex Hastoyers VIEW
EDMONDS, Winifred Daughter Single F 17 1894 Milliner Lambeth VIEW
EDMONDS, Albert Son M 13 1898 School Lambeth VIEW
EDMONDS, Alfred Son M 10 1901 School Walsworth VIEW
EDMONDS, Horace Son M 7 1904 School Walsworth VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
1804 Reference:
RG14PN1804 RG78PN64 RD23 SD4 ED12 SN38

Registration District:
Southwark Sub District:
Newington North EnumerationDistrict:
12 Parish:
St Mary Newington

Address:
35 Palatinate Buildings County:
London

Of course, no means of telling if either of these is the right Alfred.

I think you may be hard-pushed to determine who he is.

And so, Natasha - any more info about Alfred, as per my post above? ;)

His death, that is - do you know when?

Whooo that sounds like an interesting case hey!

Thank you for making it so very clear. Do you have any ideas how I might find information out on Alfred Edmonds as the only information I have is on Peter Edmonds birth certificate. I have been told that I might be able to look at the electoral register in Paddington for his address at the time of Peter's birth. I think I will need to go to Westminster archives which may be in the future as sadly I am a teacher and not off work again for a while.

Any ideas would be fab!

As per request.

Peter Edmonds of 1933 (may-jul) is also registered as Peter Sanson. Paddington Mother Brown.
The same as Lavinia and Rosemary Edmonds

It would appear that they have been entered twice as Alice Sanson (Brown) and Alfred Edmonds were not married.

My mystery lies with Alfred Edmonds a Labourer from London.

Do you know when Alfred died?

If it was after 1971, there should be a birthdate on the record. Before that, there should be an age. Of course, either one would be accurate only to the degree that the person reporting the info had it right.

Do you know whether he had a middle name at all? Do you have any of the Edmonds-Sanson/Brown children's birth certificates? the question being whether they give a middle name and maybe an occupation for Alfred.

Thank you for making it clear to me. I was slightly worried my family had done something wrong. LOL. Obviously illegitimate children is not an issue! haha

So back to the dead end of not know anything about Alfred Edmonds a labourer from the paddington area (I think!)

Okay, checked the images, and it wasn't a late registration. The birth of Peter, for instance, was registered at the same time under both Edmonds and Sanson.

This was permitted so that the real father could acknowledge paternity, despite the presumption of legitimacy, as I understand it.

We worked on another such situation here recently. Several children were registered under both their father's surname and their mother's husband's surname. The weird thing in that case was that the mother never married the children's father ... but her eldest daughter did. And we think life is complicated in this century!

Natasha, As i said in your other thread

A birth would have two entries on the index/register with same vol/page IF mother and father were not married to each other but the father went to the registry office with the mother to register the birth as his child.

But their would only be one birth cert

The child could use what ever name they liked, their is no such thing as a (legal) name you can call yourself what ever you like as long as you don't use a name/alias to defraud anyone

Roy

Off the top of my head, and based on other such registrations I've seen, this is what happened.

Your great-grandmother was still married to Sanson when the children were born.

The "presumption of legitimacy" says that a child born to a married woman is presumed to be her husband's child (and must be registered as such).

(Originally, this was to stop men from claiming that children were not theirs and refusing to support them, or disinheriting them. Marriage started as a way of protecting property, and making sure it went to a man's offspring - and that's actually why there were laws against rape, so that men could be sure their wives' children were their own.)

Here, Natasha, I'll do it.

From your other thread:


My grandfather and his sisters have been registered on the birth register under my great grandfathers name Edmonds and their mothers married name of Sanson. Both sets of records have the same volume number and page number so therefore produce the same certificate.

Can 1 person be registered twice under 2 different surnames?
Is this the case for unmarried couples?
If so what name is this person legally meant to use?
Arrr help needed!


Let's have a look ...

Most people did not divorce as it was too costly. They either lived with the next partner or married bigamously! Living together was extremely common but generally not mentioned (at least if our lot was anything to go by!).
Jan

n

Thank you for all of your replies. I am now slightly confused. I found a George Brown on the 1891 census and because it had him married to a Lavinia Brown I have followed this root (these people I assumed to be Alice's parents) but you guys have provide that not to be true. I assumed this as Alice Rose Brown later had a child called Lavinia and I assume this was her mothers name! CONFUSED!!!
I have also found Stanley birth registered to Brown and Christophers but I have not yet sent for the certs. I will do asap to see if Sanson appears. From the story I have been told. Only Christopher was Alice's first partners and Stanley, Peter (my grandfather) Rosemary and Lavinia were all Edmonds.
This is the part I have no information on. My great grandfather Alfred Edmonds and Alice Rose Brown. I can only assume her first husband died in the War as the records would show, but then a later record shows him not dying till 1991. Did people divorce in those days?
Like you all I have found no record of a marriage between Alfred and Alice.

I must now change my tree with your new information. Any other information would be great.

I have found this birth ???

Name: Christopher L Sanson
Mother's Maiden Surname: Brown
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1925
Registration district: Southwark
Registration county: Greater London
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 127 (click to see others on page)

Edit Ooops this is probably the same birth as Maureen found.

Possible baptism for Alice....her father George is a metal polisher as on the marriage register...

Name: Alice Rose Brown
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 14 Feb 1897
Father's Name: George Brown
Mother's Name: Emma Percilla Brown
Parish: Saint John The Evangelist, Walworth
Borough: Southwark
County: Middlesex

I can't find a marriage either - when would you hve expected it to have taken place?
Jan

Marriage details....

Name: John Vernon Sanson
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Spouse Name: Alice Rose Brown
Spouse Age: 17
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 23 Aug 1914
Parish: Saint Mary, Newington
County: Middlesex
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: John Sanson
Spouse Father Name: George Brown

Name: Alice Rose Brown
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897
Spouse Name: John Vernon Sanson
Spouse Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 23 Aug 1914
Parish: Saint Mary, Newington
County: Middlesex
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: George Brown
Spouse Father Name: John Sanson

hi possible death for john if he died ww1 only one came up for his name


Military Section Army
Forename JOHN
Surname SANSON
Rank Rfn.
Regiment Lond.
Military Number 304733
Year Of Death 1918
Volume Volume I.83; Page 439


do you know where alice was born

This is the first marriage you are referring to:

Marriages Sep 1914
BROWN Alice R Sanson Southwark 1d 43

SANSON John V Brown Southwark 1d 43