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Dear all,

I am looking for some second opinions ... I have the marriage cert of my ancestors William THomas Williams and Emma (or Emily) Heathcock from June 1889 in Middlesbrough.

I have found William in the 1891 (North Ormesby) and 1911 (Middlesbrough), and in the 1901 (Middlesbrough, although in 1901 his family name is recorded as Threadwell ... not sure why). His date of birth is recorded as c. 1870 in North Ormesby, near Middlesbrough and through looking for earlier census and baptism/birth record for William I beleive I had found his family. Here they are in 1881:


Household Record 1881 British Census

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Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
William WILLIAMS Head M Male 45 Ireland Gantry Man At Iron Works
Mary J. WILLIAMS Wife M Female 38 Ireland
John R. WILLIAMS Son U Male 17 North Ormesby, York, England Telegraph Clerk Civil Servis
William T. WILLIAMS Son Male 10 North Ormesby, York, England Scholar
Walter L. WILLIAMS Son Male 1 North Ormesby, York, England

Source Information:
Dwelling 12 Queen St
Census Place Ormesby, York, England
Family History Library Film 1342170
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4861 / 131
Page Number 25

I initally was convinced this was the same W.T. Williams; age and location seemed right, and William (1870-1920) also had a son born Walter Louis Williams, as well as a son John. However, when I purchased William and Emma Williams' 1889 marriage cert the entry for William's father and occupation is left blank. Now I wonder if the 1881 above is the same family/person; surely I should be looking for a William Thomas Williams that was born illegitimate! Can anyone help?

To make matters worse, there is no sign of the 1881 Williams family in later censuses, other than my ancestor William Thomas Wiliams. There is a possible for John Williams (born 1864 in North Ormesby), but other than this nothing to confirm either way.

Any help is appreciated.

Peter

nudge

It sounds to me as if you have the right family in 1881 as Your William Thomas seems to have named some of his children after his brothers (too much of a coincidence otherwise).

Perhaps he didn't name his father on the marriage certificate because he was under 21 and didn't have parental consent for the marriage (and perhaps thought it better to say he didn't have a father). Just a thought.

Kath. x

?1891 Walter

Name: Walter Williams
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: North Ormsby, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Ormesby
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: North Ormesby
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Household Members:
Name Age
Thos Harper 51
Margaret Harper 44
William Harper 19
Sarah Harper 12
Esther Harper 10
Sophia Harper 8
Walter Williams 11

1891 census
There is a John R William living with a Thomas Exon (not sure this has been transcribed right though!) and he is listed as nephew he is a postal clerk this could be your John as all other info fits.

Thank you for the advice; I too thought that there were too many coincidences for the this to not be the same family. Kath, of course, I never thought that he would be under 21 when marrying. Also, thank you for Walter in 1891; now I see this I do remember coming accross this before, although I have not madea note of it! Thank you!

However, I don't believe i have seen before John R Williams with Robert Exon. I had found a probable John in 1901 but not 1891 ... thank you so much.

I went back to the marriage cert for William and Emma Heathcock Williams from 1889 at Middlesbrough and the witnesses were Joseph and Hannah Heathcock; not sure who they are, although almost certainly relations of Emma. They are not siblings that I am aware of! Can anyone help? See the Joseph and Hannah Heathcock in 1891?

Thank you again!

1891 census shows Joseph & Sarah Heathcock living at 48 Bridge St West with children Joseph, Robert Henry and Hannah + a couple of others that I cam't make out.
Hannah is aged 17 and an apprentice dressmaker. Joseph is her brother.
Found them on GR 1891 census search by just searching for Heathcock with no surname

Thank you for this help! I have found it also now ... so kind of you to help me like this!

Peter

RE Christiana's comment above, can you see please if the origonal 1891 census transcript can be found ... I would like to see if I can find a connection between the Williams family and the Exon family.

Thanks:

1891 census
There is a John R William living with a Thomas Exon (not sure this has been transcribed right though!) and he is listed as nephew he is a postal clerk this could be your John as all other info fits.

I think he could be Thomas Dixon. John's sister, Mary J, is also living there, niece.


Ozi

Update:
I thought I'd add this to make things clearer. Although it's a bit of a mess.

1891 England Census
Name: Thomas Exon
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Exon
Gender: Male
Where born: Hawsker, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Middlesborough
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
Town: Middlesborough
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address: 6 Marshall St

Occupation: Brick ___(?) Labourer

Condition as to marriage: widowed

Registration district: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
Piece: 4009
Folio: 125
Page Number: 17
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Exon 38
Jane Exon 75 - mother, married
Kary J William 30 - married!!
John R William 27 - married!!; Postal Clerk

It is Dixon.

Found Thomas with his parents in 1881. He has a 9 yr old son, Thomas.
1881 England Census
Name: Thomas Dixon
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Dixon
Mother's Name: Jane Dixon
Gender: Male
Where born: Hawsker, Yorkshire, England <<< This is the birthplace of Thomas Exon.
Civil parish: Ormesby
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address: Cargo Fleet Village Farm
Condition as to marriage: Widow

Occupation: Farmer
Registration district: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration district: Ormesby

England Marriages, 1538–1973
groom's name: Thomas Dixon
groom's birth date: 1852
groom's age: 19
bride's name: Ann Estill
bride's birth date: 1854
bride's age: 17
marriage date: 06 May 1871
marriage place: York, England - I think this should be Yorkshire.
groom's father's name: Thomas Dixon
bride's father's name: Gilson Estill
indexing project (batch) number: I03607-8


Marriages Jun 1871
Dixon Thomas Whitby 9d 718 <<<<<
ESTILL Ann Whitby 9d 718 <<<<<
Hodgson Mary Whitby 9d 718
Hugill George Whitby 9d 718


????
Deaths Mar 1874 Dixon Annie 20 Whitby 9d 292



So far no connection to your family.

Hi just posting the 1871 census because William Thomas Williams' parents have changed their minds about their birthplace:

Name: William T Williams
Age: 7 Months
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Williams
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Williams
Gender: Male
Where born: No Ormesby, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Ormesby
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: North Ormesby
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Guisborough
Sub-registration district: Kirkleatham
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 321
Piece: 4856
Folio: 36
Page Number: 65
Household Members:
Name Age
William Williams 34 <<<<<<<<<<born in Hull
Mary Ann Williams 29 <<<<<<born in Grimsby, Lincolnshire
John R Williams 7
William T Williams 7 Months
William Eccleston 40
Elect Alkins 27
Fredrick Jurris 21

Perhaps buy the sons' birth certificates?

There is a large gap between these two births and before that of Walter Lewis; did all three have the same two parents?

Possible birth registrations in Middlesbrough/Guisborough (although there are also other registrations without the middle names)

Name: Walter Lewis Williams
Date of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1880
Registration district: Middlesbrough
Inferred County: Yorkshire - North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 577

Name: William Thomas Williams
Date of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1870
Registration district: Guisborough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 474

Name: John Robert Williams
Date of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1864
Registration district: Guisborough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 449

Thank you Ozibird - as ever your work is fantastic! Much appreciated.

And Ivy thank you - I have searched for this family for years (no sign of the parents after 1881), and placed numerous related boards about this family on here looking for answers. I already have the birth of cert of William Thomas Williams (my ancestor) and his mother is Mary Ann (nee Armstrong), but I note in 1881 she is recorded as Mary Jane?! Arrr, I NOW see what you are saying?!

I am looking for relevent deaths and marriages but nothing is jumping out. All odd!

Any other ideas Ivy? They are appreciated to solve the mystery.

Hi Peter, will sleep on it - no bright ideas at present...it looks as if exploring side branches like the possible Dixon link will be the way to crack it?

Assumptions! Assumptions!

On 1891, I thought Mary J was his sister and questioned them both being married. Mary J is his wife!! Therefore the relationship to Dixon is possibly through his wife, and why she comes before him in the 1891 household.

1901 England Census
Name: John R Williams
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary J Williams
Gender: Male
Where born: North Ormsby, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Middlesbrough
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Middlesborough
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address: 35 Garnet St

Occupation: Sorting Clerk at GPO

Registration district: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
Piece: 4579
Folio: 83
Page Number: 12
Household Members: Name Age
John R Williams 37
Mary J Williams 40 - Fylingdales, Yorkshire
George H Williams 9
Joseph C Williams 7
Albert Williams 4
Hannah Harriston 18 - visitor


???
Marriages Jun 1890
Collier Mary Jane Middlesbro' 9d 935 <<<
Killington John Middlesbro' 9d 935
Robinson Susannah Middlesbro' 9d 935
WILLIAMS John Robert Middlesbro' 9d 935



This is the rest of the 1881 I posted yesterday.
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dixon 64
Jane Dixon 65
Thomas Dixon 29
Thomas Dixon 9
Mary J. Collier 20 <<<<<<< granddaughter
William Gain 19 - Farm Servant
David Taylor 19 - Milkman

???marriage

Marriages Dec 1871
CURSON James Guisbro' 9d 1025
Goodale Martha Guisbro' 9d 1025
Goodall Martha Guisbro' 9d 1025
Harrison Mary Ann Guisbro' 9d 1025 *****
Williams William Guisbro' 9d 1025 *******

There are some Yorkshire records on Ancestry so might be worth a search

Ok, and thank you so far. So Dixon is the family of Mary Jane Collier who married John Robert Williams.

I already have the birth certificate for William Thomas Williams, born 1870 in North Ormesby to William Williams and Mary Ann Armstrong. I have called the register office and they can confirm that John Robert's birth in 1864 shows the mother's maiden name to be ARMSTRONG. So I am waiting now for confirmation that Walter Louis' mother is ARMSTRONG.

All very confusing!

Also, confirmation that Walter's mother's maiden was ARMSTRONG so these three boys share the same mother and father.