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Hi everyone,

I have had this particular brick wall for some time now, and I think its time I turned it over for a fresh pair of eyes.

I have an Edward Hudson married to Eliza Underwood - freeBMD Sep Q 1901 Mile End 1c 663 - and no I haven't yet got the certificate. I have also now found a son Alfred J (again from freeBMD - Mar Q 1913 Pancras 1b 152).

What I'm after, before I go and buy the certificate (budgets, you know) is if there are any more children - I'm sure there must be, I just cannot find them. I have had a look at the 1911 census, but it is fairly silent without paying a lot of $$ and I can't see anything concrete.

Is there anything that I'm missing?

Chris

If you'll give their years of birth, someone else could search in 1911.

Have you tried the "living with" search to look for them together?

Search for any Hudson born 1906 +/- 5 years living with

ELIZA EDWARD
HUDSON

Sort the results by district for easy scanning. There's a batch in Islington that seems about the only possibles. Search for Eliza Hudson and then Edward Hudson living with those names to see whether you get matches with yours. If not, try just for Eliza living with Edward and vice versa.

Or someone with a subscription will come along. ;) But still, the ages of your Eliza and Edward are needed to make a match.

Thanks Janey,

Silly me, to forget the ages like that (I'm not really that much of noobie, really).

For the record, thae ages are approx:

Eliza Underwood b1882
Edward Hudson born about the same time, but not really sure.

The 1901 marriage entry makes them of an age to marry (but not 'full age' for Eliza).

Thanks though for the tips for searching. Really appreciated.

errrrrrrrrr


I think you might have made a mistake!


I looked at the Marriages and Banns for London and this is what I found



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Edward Hudson
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Eliza Sage
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Aug 1901
Parish: Saint Peter
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Hudson (deceased), Labourer
Spouse Father Name: Edward Sage, Carman


from image:-
Edward Hudson:-
Bachelor,
Carman
Address:- 152 Globe Road

Elizabeth:-
Spinster
no occupation given
Address:- 188 Devonshire Street

Witnesses:- Percy Edwin Sage and Eliza Underwood



and



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Eliza Underwood
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1881
Spouse Name: Percy Edwin Sage
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Aug 1901
Parish: Saint Peter
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Underwood, Foreman
Spouse Father Name: Edward Sage, Carman

information from image:-

Eliza
Spinster
no occupation given
Address:- 149 Devonshire Street

Percy
Bachelor
Chemists' Porter
Address:- 152 Globe Road

Witnesses:- E Hudson and E Sage


it does not say whether it was a double wedding or one followed the other ..... but they did sign as witnesses using their maiden names!





sylvia

Percy in 1901 ...... at home with parents, but no Elizabeth Eliza


1901 Census

Name: Percy E Sage
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edwin
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Sittingbourne, Kent, England

Civil parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anthony Stepney
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End, Old Town, Eastern

Edwin Sage 52 Carman for Ironmonger
Sarah Sage 43
Percy E Sage 21 Porter for Chemist
Horace E Sage 19
Bertie Sage 19
Maud L Sage 15
Alice B Sage 13
Florence K Sage 11
Edward Sage 9
John H Sage 7
Eva V Sage 5
Veanner Sage 3
Charles E Sage 1
James Kay 20

Address:- 152 Globe Road


(Elizabeth) Eliza with Percy and parents in 1881

1881 Census

Name: Eliza Sage
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Edwin
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: Stockbury, Kent, England

Civil parish: Sittingbourne
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: 10 Pembury St

Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Milton
Sub-registration district: Milton

Edwin Sage 33 b.ca 1848, Hollingbourne, Kent, Employed by Carrier
Sarah Sage 24 b.ca 1857, Moulish, Kent
Eliza Sage 5
Percy Sage 2




sylvia

Sylvia,

Reading through the info you have presented shows that Eliza's father was George. That makes this 'another' Eliza Underwood. My Eliza's father was Richard Underwood (who was married to Eliza Green). Also the addresses don't match up with what i have for the rest of the family (not that that means an awful lot, I know).

There may still be an error on my part in that Eliza didn't marry Edward Hudson at all! but someone else I haven't been able to locate as yet.

As this is a remote part of the Underwood clan, I confess to putting it off for some while with only occasional visits to try and unravel the mess.

Thanks for your effort though, its really appreciated.

????? Edward in 1891 .... father is George and he is a Labourer 1891 Census

Name: Edward Hudson
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Martha
Gender: Male
Where born: Dover, Kent, England

Civil parish: Hougham
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Dover
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Dover
Sub-registration district: Hougham

George Hudson 50 b.ca 1841, Cobham, Surrey, Brewers Labourer
Martha Hudson 53 b.ca 1838, Taunton, Somerset
Beatrice Hudson 10 <<<<<<< I cannot read the age but it is more than 10. Could be 18. Occupation General Domestic Servant
Edward Hudson 15
Caroline Rideout 3 Granddaughter

Address:- 22 Mreistarcy (???) Road



..... I'm not convinced that this IS your Edward!!


You need to ask someone to look at the 1911 census and see if they can tell you where your Edward was born.




sylvia

well


those are the marriages that would be registered in the September quarter of 1901


and it is the ONLY Eliza/Elizabeth Underwood


and both marriages would appear in the same place on the freebmd listing

Marriages Sep 1901 (>99%)

Hudson Edward Mile End 1c 663
SAGE Elizabeth Eliza Mile End 1c 663
SAGE Percy Edwin Mile End 1c 663
Underwood Eliza Mile End 1c 663



so you takes your pick



It seems to me that Eliza Underwood did NOT marry Edward in 1901, but married Percy Sage


and Edward Hudson married Elizabeth Eliza SAGE




sylvia

Is this YOUR Eliza???


1901 Census

Name: Eliza H Underwood
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Stratford, Essex, England

Civil parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Forest Gate

Richard Underwood 43
Eliza Underwood 42
Richard G Underwood 18
Eliza H Underwood 19
William S Underwood 17
Florence R Underwood 15
Benjamin P Underwood 11
Ethel G Underwood 8
Leonard V Underwood 1




sylvia

Sylvia,

OK, now I understand. When I looked at that entry I assumed that (as in so many other instances where I have seen this) an error had been made regarding the brides name and been recorded as her new husbands name - I have proof that this had happened in a number of cases.

For the last of your posts, yes you have the correct family.

A rethink on Elizas husband is in order then.........

Many thanks for your explanation.

This is doing my heasd in.....

What about the son I have found, Alfred J Hudson with mother Underwood?

OK now I have found 3 kids with surname Sage and mother Underwood.

Dec 1915 Violet R possibly died Mar 1918, but was she on deaths door in 1917, because..... (possibly it wasn't recorded til then due to delays of some sort)
Sep 1917 Violet G
Sep 1922 John A

There must have been more kids born between the marriage in 1901 and these entries sgtarting 1915.

......... but it is going to be difficult to identify the children, because the mother's name was not included on the GRO records until mid-1911, and therefore does not show on freebmd until that date.


Some local bmd registers do have mother's maiden names on before that ...... for example Lancashire bmds


I don't know much about searching for London records.


May be some one else will have some suggestions for you ...... 'cos there are likely to be a lot of Sage births ........ Percy looked as though he came from a large family, let alone what uncles etc he might have!




sylvia

anyway, you said that Eliza on the marriage certificate was not your Eliza because the father was different



sylvia

Hi Christopher,

Before I look further could you please just confirm exactly who we should be following - Is it Edward Hudson or Eliza Underwood?

If Sylvia has posted the correct Eliza on 1901, (and you DO say that she has!!), then she is not the one who married later that year.

1911 Census shows her still with parents and siblings and SINGLE !

UNDERWOOD, Richard Head Married M 53 1858 Fitter's Labourer Marlyebone
UNDERWOOD, Eliza Wife Married 30 years F 52 1859 Kersey Suffolk
UNDERWOOD, Eliza Daughter Single F 29 1882 Shop Assistant Stratford Essex
UNDERWOOD, Leonard Son M 11 1900 School Stratford Essex
UNDERWOOD, William Son Single M 26 1885 Fitter And Turner Stratford Essex
UNDERWOOD, Benjamin Son Single M 20 1891 Fitter And Turner Stratford Essex

RG14PN9745 RG78PN514B RD188 SD10 ED71 SN268

Address:
70 Ritchings Avenue Walthamstow, Essex

............................

If it is Eliza you are following, this would seem a more likely marriage:

Eliza H Underwood
Year of Registration: 1913
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Spouse: George B Jondan
District: West Ham
County: Essex, Greater London
Volume: 4a
Page: 153

Dea x

NB - The marriage does say George B JONDAN, however, I have a feeling that the surname should be JORDAN ???

Nudged up for the 'night shift' please

Dea Xxx

Sorry guys, I have to sleep sometime.

I'm in Australia so there is a time difference.

Sylvia,

Yes I understand that it will be difficult to ID any further children for the reason you state. Also as you say, he comes from a very large family so is likely to have a large family himself. The extended family is also likely to be pretty big too.

Dea,

The person of interest is really Eliza Underwood. The reason I have used this surname board is that for a long time I thought she was married to Edward Hudson (probably not - see above). I know about the rest of the Underwood clan, well most of them anyway.

As far as the 1911 census is concerned, its no wonder I was getting confused, bamboozled and generally sent round the twist, as this is obviously the right family. On the other hand, could she have been married, then either widowed or divorced and gone back home to live? (and recorded as single to avoid the 'stigma' of widowhood or divorcee that would have existed at that time). The address is certainly correct as are the rest of the family members.

In which case the marriage you have suggested is the more likely.

Oh Lord, another name to follow up!! Will it never end?

Actually, Christopher


we didn't know that you were using a surname board!!


You see .............. anything posted on the Surname threads also appear on the Trying to Find board


This can cause great problems when someone does not include the surname in either the title or in the header message ........... because the surname board name does not transfer across.


I think everyone who has tried to help you is in fact working on the Trying To Find (TTF) board!


I doubt very much that Eliza would have reverted to her maiden name if widowed ............. and divorce at that time would be very very unusual unless someone was very wealthy. It was extremely expensive and difficult to prove.


If that is indeed her on the 1911 census, then the marriage that Dea found would be a possible.

The plus is that as it is after mid-1911, you can search fro any children on www.freebmd.org.uk using both the father's surname and mother's maiden name.


I wonder if he served in WW1, if his records survived (only about 40% or so are estimated to have survivived), and if there is any information to be found on them re next of kin and children????

I'll see if I can find anyhting.



sylvia

No George Jondan except on that marriage regstration


....... I did look at the original image of the GRO register on freebmd, and it was Jondan on there. So if it was a mis-transcription it was right back when the marriage registration was entered in the GRO register.

The only way to know whether it is correct or not would be to buy the certificate.

Loads of George Jordans in censuses, other records, family trees, and on the war records ...... and sorting them out is not made easier by the fact that we don't know how old George was, nor where he was born.





sylvia

You have both (Dea and Silvia) been so very helpful. Let me elaborate on one thing though. When I said that I used a surmane board what I meant was that I used the TTF board but with the specific surname of Hudson. I find it actually better to use the TTF boards rather than the SI boards as you two have so beautifully proven.

I too looked on the freeBMD site and inspected the image of the transcription, and yes the name is clearly Jondan. At least this certificate is probably a better bet to buy than the Hudson one I was looking at getting.

Once again, thanks for all your help.

Chris
Brisbane, Australia

Good morning from 'over here' !

I see you two have been chatting away while I have been asleep.

I hope you will get that cert Christopher as I would be interested to know what that surname really should be.

Do let us know on this thread if you do.

Dea x