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Having real problems with one branch of my family and would appreciate any advice. My ancestors are William Fenn, Elizabeth his wife, and Ann (Nancy) Fenn.

I'll present the info I have.

1841 census
Elizabeth Fenn living with daughters Elizabeth c1829 and Mary c1837 in Spitalfields. (Given as Elisabeth Fann on ancestry)
Elizabeth dob c1801 from Middlesex. I can't find her husband William

1851 census (as given on ancestry) living in Spitalfields
William Fenn labourer dob c1809 Hertfordshire
Elizebeth Fenn weaveress dob c1805 Middlesex
William c1832, James c1834, Mary c1839 (eldest daughter Elizabeth had died in 1850)
Thomas c1843 Bethnal Green
Nancy c1846 Bethnal Green

1861 census living in Shoreditch
Elizabeth Fenn widow laundress dob c1791 Shadwell
Thomas Fenn dob c1841 Shadwell
Ann Fenn dob c1843 Shadwell

Eldest daughter Elizabeth was christened in 1829 in Bethnal Green
William Jr married Elizabeth Tingey in 1847
I don't know what happened to James
Mary married Thomas Dearing in 1858
Thomas married Elizabeth Beasley in 1864
Ann married Richard William Beasley in 1862
(Richard WIlliam Beasley and Elizabeth Beasley were siblings)
They all give their father as William, labourer

As you can see itr's all over the place. Thomas and Ann subsequently always quote Bethnal Green as their place of birth. I've spent a lot of money on birth certificates Thomas's birth wasn't 1842 Whitechapel (this one son of Thomas and Ann), it wasn't Jan 1843 Whitechapel (this one son of Joseph and Elizabeth) and it wasn't 1843 Bethnal Green (this one son of Charles and Sarah. Ann's birth wasn't 1842 Shoreditch (this one d. of Henry and Ann), it wasn't 1843 Bethnal Green (this one d. of James and Ann) and it wasn't 1845 Bethnal Green (this one d. of William and Mary)

Ann died in 1879 at the age of 35 - putting her birth at c1844.

I need some help - would love to find Elizabeth's maiden name and possibly a birth for William Sr. (he's not William Fenn son of Thomas Fenn born in Wigginton from familysearch - this one married someone else and stayed in the Wigginton area)

Help!

Gary

1881 - connected?

Thomas FENN Head M Male 37 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Marble Mason
Elizabeth FENN Wife M Female 35 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Thomas FENN Son Male 16 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Marble Mason
William FENN Son Male 14 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Printers Boy
James FENN Son Male 9 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Scholar
Elizabeth FENN Daur Female 7 Hackney, Middlesex, England Scholar
Richard FENN Son Male 5 Hackney, Middlesex, England Scholar
John FENN Son Male 2 Hackney, Middlesex, England


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Source Information:
Dwelling 22 Palace Rd
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341067
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0314 / 95
Page Number 39

Yes this is Thomas's family

Are you sure the 1861 census you posted is the same family ?
Birthplaces are all given as Shadwell ( Yorkshire) and Elizabeth's age is different by 14 years !

again you can see the confusing with birth dates...

this is a definite. Ann gives her place of address at the marriage in Motley Street where this census takes place. I wasn't so sure about the other censuses to start with, but Mary Fenn witnesses Thomas's marriage as Mary Dearing, so it's pretty certain they had a sister Mary and other info ties in

Bit late if William jr was born 1832:

Name: William Fenn
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Johnson Manning
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 02 Oct 1832
Parish: St Martin in the Fields, Westminster
County: Middlesex
Borough: Westminster

Yeah - I've looked into that one as well, but Elizabeth Johnson Fenn seems to have ended up in Surrey or Kent somewhere and is unconnected

Shadwell is an inner city area of London, in the Tower Hamlets borough.

I think both she and my Elizabeth Fenn are both present on the 1861 census

With Shadwell - I think it's likely that's where Elizabeth came from, but I can't imagine any of the family could write and when asked in the census where they all came from I think she probably just said Shadwell and this was copied for the children too, without it being the case

Hello Gary

A possible baptism for Thomas although I wonder why they waited 15 years!

Baptisms Bethnal Green St Matthnew
Thomas Fenn
Baptised: 15 April 1855
Born 20 January 1840
Son of William and Elizabeth
Abode: 17 Half Nichol Street
Father’s Profession: Labourer

(Half Nichol Street was a poor area of Bethnal Green)

Probably not “your” Thomas as he should be on the 1841 census – perhaps he was somewhere with his Dad!

Ivan

Thanks Ivan. It may be mine - Elizabeth was on the 1841 with her daughters and William seems to be missing with the sons - though where he'd have been going with a 1 year old I'm not sure. And it also leaves the question, if they knew his exact birthdate why did they say he was 8 on the 1851 census and not 11? I know they quite often lowered children's ages on the 1841 so they wouldn't be conscripted - could this be the case here?

Just trying to push this one last time to see if there are any more ideas...

only 2 births for Ann Fenn in B. Green from 1843 - 46

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Births Sep 1843
Fenn Ann Bethnal Gn 2 59

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Births Sep 1845
Fenn Ann Bethnal Green 2 64



and only 2 for Thomas 1840 -46

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Births Sep 1843
Fenn Thomas Bethnal Gn 2 30

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Births Jun 1844
Fenn Thomas Bethnal Gn 2 75

And those will be the births Gary said were not them, Mike. ;) (1844 being a little late for Thomas)


What I think is ... William and Elizabeth probably weren't married, and the children were registered under her surname ... whatever that was ... if they were registered. Chances might be high that they weren't.

Something must have happened around 1855 for Thomas to get baptised as their child. A life-threatening illness is one possibility.

In one of my families, I have a batch baptism in Cornwall in 1857 of children born 1848-1856. Their births were all registered as children of the couple, who were together in 1851 (but estranged sometime in the 1850s) -- but as far as I can tell the couple never married. There were three older children, at least two also registered as children of the couple, one of whom was baptised at the age of 27, apparently in contemplation of death (so I have no idea why the older ones were baptised in 1857 as well).

In that case, I suspect the mother had them baptised to strengthen their claim to legitimacy, or at least paternity ... because I suspect they weren't children of her "husband".

In another, I have a couple born abt 1825 who married in 1872 -- 7 years after their last child was born -- and I have yet to figure out why! (can't find a pre-existing marriage, etc.)

It's a possibility, anyhow, not that it helps at all.

Thanks Janey and Mike

I think you're probably right Janey. I've read that in some of the slum parts of London people didn't register their children, because lanlords might throw them out if there were too many people living in the same room, or would want to put the rent up. It gives me a good insight into how my ancestors lived and I am very grateful that I haven't ended up in their position. But it does make me quite sad to find out how they had to live. (Just a bit annoying when it comes to genealogy research...)

Gary

Thought I'd just bump this up to the top again, new set of people, new set of eyes - maybe one of you can help...

Gary

Hello Gary

Something which might be of interest (or perhaps a red herring!).

I notice that in 1851 William, Elizabeth and family were living at 20 Pelham Street, Christchurch Spitalfields.

There is this record for 1841:

1841
HO107 Piece 711 Book/Folio 5/24 Page 10
Pelham Street, Stepney, Mile End New Town, Whitechapel
FENN, Thomas 50 Silkweaver born Middlesex
FENN, Thomas 20 born Middlesex
FENN, Mary 50 born Middlesex
FENN, Elizabeth 18 born Middlesex

This seems to be the same Pelham Street – although in 1841 house numbers aren’t given.

Thomas Snr could be a relative of William?

Possible children for Thomas and Mary – all baptised at Shoreditch St Leonard, Hackney (Father’s occupation: Weaver):

Elizabeth Fenn 15 May 1814
Susan Fenn 28 Jan 1816
Thomas Fenn 14 Dec 1817
Elizabeth Fenn 7 Jan 1821

Regards

Ivan