Find Ancestors

To my kind helpers again................I think I put the last message on to soon.........................

Whilst packing all this paperwork away for the day I suddenly noticed the addresses given for Joseph Hancox on the marriage cert and the 1911 census. They were the same addresses!!! So the same Joseph Hancox. Although on the marriage cert Clara gives her address as 6Ct 3Hse Summer St. I looked on 1911 census for this particular property and it wasn't there??

So now I am completely flummoxed!! Too much of a coincidence for Clara not to be the one I am looking for.................................same ages, same places of birth and 'same' mother who was living with sister Rose in 1901.

Could Clara have not been the daughter of Philip Marsh (he was still with his wife at the time I have now proven). Could Emma have already have given birth when she met Philip? I thought it strange that Philip & Emma had had sister Rose baptised but not Clara. I have looked and looked.

Any more suggestions folks? Mo

To all those that kindly tried to help me I have to conclude that the marriage of a Joseph Hancox & Clara were definitely not the ones I was looking for. The parents of Clara are given as William Curtis and she calls herself a 'widow' with no former surname given.

I still strongly believe that the Joseph Hancox and Clara as given in Aston Manor in Birmingham in the 1911 census are the ones I am looking for as her mother Emma Curtis is residing with them - all correct places of birth and age are correct. After looking at all marriages for this couple between 1879 and 1911 and not finding a marriage, I have to conclude that they never ever married - as her parents never did. I guess she gives the years of marriage as 28 to 'save face'.

For interest sake - I did send for copies of the newspaper cuttings as given in the 'Your Family Tree mag - from Bath, and indeed, the Philip mentioned was Clara's father and the woman 'his legal wife', not Emma.

What surprises we can find. If only they knew they would be found out!!

You have to understand that this family were inclined to travel round the country - at times in a caravan. They were illiterate. Dysfunctional. They were born to Emma when their father was still married and living with his wife. This last fact I only found out myself this week, after - surprisingly - reading an old copy of Your Family History mag and their names were mentioned in respect of a murder case in 1865.- in Bath. And, I do know for sure it was them!

Why get married after 28 years? To legalise the marriage I suspect. Especially if the one child did survive as stated in 1911. It is what a lot of folks do.

I have already sent for a copy of marriage cert. All will be revealed.

Name: Clara Hancox
Death Registration Month/Year: 1940
Age at death (estimated): 77
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 337
?

Have you the 1915 marriage certificate,and what are the ages given

Ellen

If they married in 1915 then they would not be together in the 1911 Census ?

Ellen
P.S or married 28 years

Whilst I have the marriage cert for sister Rose - to date I haven't for Clara. I will try to find time to send for it tomorrow. Will let you know the results................Mo

Maureen,

Sorry to be a pedant but I still have considerable doubt about the 1891 census for Clara/Mary Hancox. Whilst I agree that the mothers occupation would appear to fit the Clara Hancox in the 1911 census, that is the only real possible link. Bear in mind that Birmingham was known as the city of 1,000 trades. I suspect that there were probably many chandelier producers in Birmingham at the time and doubtless they employed many people.

Another reason why I am doubtful is that the child was first recorded as Mary which was then crossed through and replaced by the name Clara. In the case of the mother her name was first recorded as Clara which was then crossed through and replaced by the name Mary. The child is indicated as being less than 2 months old meaning that she was born in 1891. There is no record of the birth of a Mary Hancox anywhere in Warwickshire in the Jan~March quarter of 1891 but of course there is a record of a Clara Hancox during that quarter.

Whilst I can only agree that the records produced by institutions may be generally regarded as possibly less accurate than those produced by other sources, in that particular institution the recorder(s)/enumerator(s) seem to have been particularly diligent in recording the birthplaces and occupations of the patients.

The Clara Curtis shown to be living in the same house as a James Hancox in 1901 is shown as being single and a Spur maker. If she was prepared in 1891 to be known as a married Clara Hancox then it would seem reasonable to assume that she would have been known as that 10 years later. There seems very little doubt that "James" is really Joseph Hancox since the birth year, birthplace and occupation all tally with both earlier and later census records. Another possible connection being that in both 1891 and 1911 he is living in the same street.

With regard as to why the couple would in 1911state that they had been married for 28 years when in fact they did not marry until 1915 is a mystery. Have you got a copy of their marriage certificate? If so what are their ages and their fathers details? What is indicated as their marital status?

Thanks again. The reason I say that the Clara Hancox in the Infirmary is correct is because it says she worked in Chandelier Factory. 1911 census also says Press Worker in Chandelier Factory. I don't think this family was too literate so the fact that she gives her birth place as Birmingham whilst in the Workhouse I think is neither here or there. Perhaps the person filling in the farm assumed Birmingham. The mistakes on the names I also think is a WH error. Perhaps Clara was ill and not too bright - perhaps she hadn't given too much thought to the childs name thinking she might die, etc, etc.,

Why did they decide to marry after 30 years? Was it for the sake of the remaining child? Again we can only guess. When I get time I may well sent for her death cert.

I have printed out all the Hancox births for the period of 28years and also the deaths and married them up. Surprising the amount of deaths of children at birth in that time. 3 stand out which just maybe the other two. Rose in June 1886 but it doesn't look as though she died. Rose in June 1898 - she died. Her sister was named Rose. Philip in Dec 1908. I also thought Clara Martha maybe her child.

It may mean a trip to Birmingham RO but I don't look forward to the trip.

Thanks for your help - I look forward to getting your feedback.

Mo

Maureen

This puzzle must have driven you mad at times. Agree with Jonesey that the 1891 Mary/Clara and daughter may not be yours.

Looking at the seemingly interchangable nature of the use of Curtis and Marsh with Clara's family I think the best tie in to confirm this would appear to be the 1901 census where Rose is married to John Glossop and her mother Emma Curtis is living with them.

Re your query of which child was still living in 1911 - I did wonder whether it was possible that the Maud Chilcut living with them in 1901 could be a daughter. I can't see a birth for a child with that surname or similar in the area. Having said this I can't see a birth for either Maud Curtis or Hancox that would tie in.

Will re look at the issue today

Kay

Maureen,

I will take a look tomorrow and I will get back to you.

Edit:

Just taken a quick look at the 1891 census that you mentioned. I am not convinced that these are the people that you are interested in. For one thing the birth date and birthplace of the mother? do not tally with the Clara Marsh/Curtis/Hancox. She was born in Kent c1862 and the person in the infirmary is indicated as being born in Birmingham c1864. I also think that it is most likely that the mothers name is Mary and the child is Clara.

It is possible that the birth and death records shown below are those of the child:

Births Mar 1891 (>99%)
Hancox Clara Martha Birmingham 6d 204

Deaths Sep 1892 (>99%)
Hancox Clara Martha 1 Birmingham 6d 112

I will take a further look tomorrow.

Many thanks K & Jonesey.

I can see that you both like a challenge and the family of Clara Hancox and her parents certainly was a challenge for the past few years. I had to give it up and then went back to this family last year before I "see the light"!

Clara's maiden name was not in fact Curtis. Her father was a Philip Marsh and mother (I believe) a Emma Curtis. As I am not able to find a marriage I have to accept they were not married especially as Philip was already married.

See1871 Census Philip & Emma MARSH & girls Clara & Rose RG10/2996 Pg 39.
See 1881 census RG11 3030/47 page 29. You will find Philip and "wife" Emma with children Clara & Rose.

In 1891 is were the problem lays. I could not find Philip Marsh anywhere even though I trolled through all the Philip/Phillip's. It took me absolutely ages to find "wife"Emma with girls as is miss-transcribed. Unable to remember transcription at this time but on RG12/2422 pg 3 or 8. Emma is with daughter Rose. Still using the name Marsh. Check birth places as correct to previous census. Also in 1891 Clara Hancox is in the Workhouse Infirmary saying married and a 2mth old child named either Mary or Clara (some crossings out). Occupation given is Chandilier Lamp Maker. Obviously either she or the child is ill.

1901 Clara CURTIS is a boarder as you say with a James Hancox. Also 1901 Rose is now married and with a John Glossop AND mother EMMA CURTIS. RG13/2842 pg 14. Obviously Philip & Emma have separated and Emma has reverted to ?her maiden name also changing the girls surname.

1911 Clara is withJoseph Hancox in Aston saying they have been married 28years and have had three living children and only one survived. With them is widowed mother-in-law EMMA CURTIS. Also Page 99 sister Rose is with John Glossop in ?Nechells?.

I have the marriage cert of Rose & John Glossop and Rose gives her fathers name as PHILIP CURTIS a "Traveller". He dies in 1899. Is it too much of a coicidence for father to be called Philip if not the same Philip Marsh and spelt with one L which was not the norm.

I believe that Emma & Philip separated between 1881 - 1891. Whilst Clara & Joseph were only married in 1915 it does work out to be about 28 years when they probably went together (1883) and a child born in 1891.

However, my query is that Clara says she had three children. Two died. What was the name of the surviving child. On no census other than the 1891 does it give a child. Researching births & deaths it could be one of a considerable amount.

Do you both concur with my research? Feedback is always helpful and appreciated

1901??

Name: Clara Curtis
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: N, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Aston Manor
Ecclesiastical parish: Aston by Birmingham St Peter and St Paul
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Aston Manor
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 88
Household Members:
Name Age
James Hancox 39 I wonder if this is Joseph - the job matches 1911
Clara Curtis 40
Keziah Lock 18 listed as boader
Maud Chilcut 9 listed as boarder and school girl

Here is Clara in 1901. She is with a James? Hancox who may well be Joseph. His occupation is a Spur maker.

1901:

Name: Clara Curtis
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: N, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Aston Manor
Ecclesiastical parish: Aston by Birmingham St Peter and St Paul
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street address: 6 House, 2 Court, Park Rd, Aston Manor

Occupation: Spur maker

Condition as to marriage: single

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Aston Manor
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 88
Household Members:
Name Age
James Hancox 39 born Birmingham
Clara Curtis 40
Keziah Lock 18
Maud Chilcut 9

Because of Clara's age and the fact that she was in employment in 1901 I feel that the couple probably had not had any children together at that time. If the couple did have any children because of Clara's age it would most probably have been in the earlier half of the 1900~1910 decade.

It certainly does not look as though Joseph and Clara had been together for 28 years:

1881:
Name: Joseph Hancox
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Father's name: Thomas Hancox
Mother's name: Harriet Hancox
Gender: Male
Where born: Bham
Civil Parish: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street address: 36 Court 1 Ho Newtown Row
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Spur Filer (S)
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Hancox 42
Harriet Hancox 41
Ellen Hancox 21
Joseph Hancox 18
Mary Hancox 16
Edward Hancox 12
Harriet Hancox 10
Arthur Hancox 8
William Hancox

1891:
Name: Joseph Hancox
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation: Son
Father's name: Thomas Hancox
Mother's name: Harriet Hancox
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Aston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter and St Paul
Town: Aston
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street address: 10Ct, 1H Clifton Road

Occupation: Bicyle impliment maker

Condition as to marriage: Single

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Aston Manor
ED, institution, or vessel: 45
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Hancox 53
Harriet Hancox 50
Joseph Hancox 29
Edward Hancox 21
Harriet Hancox 20
Arthur Hancox 18
William Hancox 11
Thomas Griffiths 45

For Ref

1911 census - household transcription
Person: HANCOX, Clara
Address: 7 Court 20 Clifton Road Aston Manor

HANCOX, Joseph Head Married M 49 1862 Spar Maker New Town Row Birmingham VIEW
HANCOX, Clara Wife Married
28 years F 49 1862 Press Worker Maidstone Kent VIEW
CURTIS, Emma Mother In Law Widow F 80 1831 Sussex Mathurst VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
18293 Reference:
RG14PN18293 RG78PN1102 RD385 SD4 ED24 SN33

Registration District:
Aston Sub District:
Aston Manor Enumeration District:
24 Parish:
Aston Manor

Address:
7 Court 20 Clifton Road Aston Manor County:
Warwickshire

What were their birthplaces and birth dates according to the 1911 census?

I am reseaching the names JOSEPH HANCOX who married a CLARA CURTIS on the Nov quarter 1915 in Birmingham. On the 1911 census they were living at 20 Clifton Rd, Aston. The census says that this couple had three children and only one survived up to 1911.

I am looking for any information regarding this surviving child.

Unfortunately, although this couple did not marry until 1915 the census said that they had been married for 28 years. I cannot find this couple in the 1901 census so am not able to find the birth name or year of this surviving child.

I would be grateful for any information anyone can give me regarding this family.

Regards Mo