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This information is very interesting and fascinating stuff. I will go over all the possible leads you have given me.
I am sure that the Templeman link may be what I am looking for. I wondered also if she had been married before but was not sure if this was her married name or not.
The fact that you have thought he may have been in the workhouse because of illness and not a pauper is much better news. It would be a very sad ending to what may have been quite a charactor.
You mentioned the marriage indexes in Barbados, but I did not know that you could access these. Could you let me know where I can find them please. I think because I could not find any link to any of the other Jordans or Piggotts in this country assumed he was here on his own. Is there anyway of finding out to your knowledge a ships log or something of that discription that would give me an idea as to when he came here. I am not sure whether he married Susan the first wife or not. My feelings is he probably did. She is listed on 1851 census as Susanah and states she was born in Norwood, but I have not been able to find any lead there either.
Once agin thanks for all your assistance and ideas it is much appreciated.

One thing to keep in mind -- workhouses had infirmaries that often served as public hospitals, not just for the destitute. This could have been the case for him. You can look up the workhouse at www.workhouses.org.uk to see what it might say about it.

You and our Australian member Allan need to get together -- his grandfather Clifford Mortimer is a multi-page mystery here; he too was an artist, and Allan has a book of watercolour sketches probably from 2 generations earlier (pre-1850) in Canada (that he kindly donated rights to the images of to a Canadian museum and historian, after I hooked them up). ;-) But no existence before his marriage in middle age.

Military artist is one option to consider, in early life. He quite likely did picture cleaning and such for a living, and was known to his children as an artist although he didn't earn a living from it, would be my guess.

I have a batch baptism in 1857 of 4 children -- I suspect the baptism was arranged by the mother and the children were not the husband's, actually that the parents weren't married. The earlier children, registered as his, as they all were, were baptised only as adults. I'm still working on this bit of my mysterious gr-grfather, one of the batch of four. I think this kind of batch baptism may have been kind of to seal a claim to paternity.


1861 household, for our info, in St Marylebone
(it's just easier for us to follow in standard form rather than narrative)

Arthur Jordan 59 Br subj, born Barbados, artist
Elizebeth Jordan 34 born London c1827
Arthur Jordan 17 "
Anny Jordan 7 "
Joseph Jordan 5 "


1851 in St Marylebone:

Arthur Jordan 49
Elizabeth Jordan 22 - born St Martins c1829
Arthur Jordan 7
Elizabeth Jordan 3
Richard Jordan 9 mo > this is not the Richard who is part of your own family

Births Sep 1850
Jordan Richard John Jordan Marylebone 1 143
Templeman Richard John Jordan Marylebone 1 143


Hard to pick out an Elizabeth Templeman in 1841 to match. In 1851 this household is also in All Souls, St Marylebone, where Arthur is:

Sarah Templeman 58 c1793
Sarah Ridley 39 (widowed daughter) c1812
James Templeman 26 (married son)
Richard Templeman 17

... with a picture frame maker at the same address ...

Household is the same in 1841 minus the married daughter, and with father John, a waterman. There's an obviously related James Templeman, 57, formerly waterman, in All Souls in 1851. These Templemans in 1851 are a mere couple of pages from Arthur in the census book. But I can't find any of them in 1841.

I wonder whether Templeman was Elizabeth's married name ... in the list of 1847 marriages in St Pancras that includes James Templeman, there is an Eliza Houshall ...


Just playing with tracing people Arthur crossed paths with / partnered with, for possible indications of what he was doing at various times ...

Hi thanks for more help
Just to give you the facts about the children of Arthur and their names as I know them

He appears to be with Susan Jordan on the 1841 census, and known as Arthur Jorden not Jordan, not born in this country.This might be a coincidence and not the same man but he is down as occupation Picture Cleaner. Later on I believe on the 1851 Susan is now living on her own and is the wife of a Picture Dealer so I think his occupation is a bit vague, but does centre around art.

Children are Emma aged 15 Jane aged 15 and Emily 4 all born in St Marylebone Midfdlesex. Also found a baptism London for a George born 1834, father picture cleaner mother Susan. He does not appear on the 1841 census.

Arthur next appears on 1851 census with an Elizabeth as wife. They are not married because I have one of the their childrens birth certs and it states she is Elizabeth Templeman not Jordan.

In between these two censuses he has lived with what I believe to be my g.g.grandmother. Her name is Catherine Jane and have not been able to find a marriage she is known on baptisms of their children as Jordan so have not been able to trace her single name.
Children with her are :- Charles born 1832, Isabella 1833 Eleanor 1838 and Catherine known as Clara 1842. This family in 1841 do not have Arthur living with them which makes me think he is the same person living with Susan. I have then found a Baptism for Clara/Catherine and another child Richard born 1848 with Catherine Jane as mother.
He does not mention the Piggott name until baptisms of children with Elizabeth.

5 children all baptised in 1859 are Richard John Jordan, Elizabeth Judith Jordan, Arthur Piggott Jordan, Joseph George Jordan, and Amy Louisa Jordan. All these childrens baptism has him as Arthur Piggott Jordan and all the baptisms for all the children I have been able to find have his occupation as Artist. This also includes the marriage cert of my g g grandmother Eleanor and her sister Isabella. I have been unable to find a baptism for my gg grandmother which is a pity. As far as I have found out all his children with all these unions were born in the uk.

Arthur died in the workhouse in 1869 in Lambeth. All the children with my gg grandmother were born in Lambeth.

I hope this is of more help as I have been as detailed as I can remember.
It would also be helpful if anyone knows whether the occupation of Artist was a little ambiguous as he obviously died penniless in the workhouse and could not have made much of a living from it.

I was ferreting around, not finding much, but any coincidences no matter how small may lead to something. Doing this is the only way I found out who my gr-grfather really was! It's fun, so you're welcome. ;-)


The only Piggott Jordan records in the GRO index:

Births Jun 1845
JORDAN William Piggott Blean 5 31
Marriages Mar 1898
Jordan William Piggott Canterbury 2a 1156


1851?

Name: William Jordan
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Grandson
Where born: Canterbury, Kent, England

Civil parish: Canterbury St Mary Northgate
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Canterbury

James Jordan 68 - shoemaker, born Kent c1783
Harriotte Jordan 61
Eliza Jordan 34 - all children unmarried
William Jordan 38
George Jordan 20
Harriotte Jordan 15
William Jordan 5


household 1861

Harriet Jordan 71
Eliza Jordan 40
George Jordan 31
William P Jordan 15
Edwin J Benser 1
Susannah Bradley 97

and 1841

James Jordan 60
Harriot Jordan 50
James Jordan 20
Eliza Jordan 20
Henry Jordan 20
William Jordan 15
Charles Jordan 14
George Jordan 10
Emily Jordan 8
Harriot Jordan 5


Probably a coincidence, but wondered. James could possibly have had a first wife older than Harriet ...


And also, re Jordan/Piggott co-occurrences:

Groom's Name: George Piggott
Bride's Name: Venus Jordan
Marriage Date: 07 Jun 1849
Marriage Place: Saint Michael,Barbadoes,Caribbean
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M51395-8
System Origin: Caribbean-ODM
Source Film Number: 1157961
Reference Number:
Collection: Caribbean Marriages, 1591-1905

That batch, M513958, has 1849 marriages in Saint Michael, Barbados. Barbados batches all seem to be M513___, but Hugh Wallis doesn't index them.


I can't find this couple in 1841

1851

Name: Thomasine Jordan
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1809
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas Jordan
Where born: Truro, Cornwall, England

Civil parish: Phillack
County/Island: Cornwall

Thomas Jordan 30 - boiler maker - grocer
Thomasine Jordan 42
Elizabeth Jordan 19 - sister

1861 census and her death record show her born c1803.


I wonder whether it could be because they were not in England?

Or because they weren't yet married

Marriages Mar 1849 ?
Hosking Thomasine Redruth 9 279
Jordan Thomas Redruth 9 279

So rule that Thomasine Jordan out. ;)


Your Arthur's children were born in England, presumably?

Thank you so much for the information.

I will certainly give these sugestions a try.

In the Chelsea Pensioner records I referred to, for Jordan born in West Indies, there is:

JORDAN Henry 1839 Bridgetown, Barbados

A son of your Arthur? Or an unknown quantity and it might be worth viewng those records to see what's there?

Another born the same year-ish:

JORDAN William Pickering 1839 Speights Town, Barbados

Also

JORDAN William 1871 Bridestown, Barbados


There are 101 matches for Jordan born in Barbados in trees at GR. Only a very few are before 1850, say. Are you in touch with the other tree owners to see what they know about their families?

Someone has a Sarah Pigott born 1789 Barbados. Also worth trying to contact, I'd think.

For instance, on a quick search for Piggott-Jordan marriages in Barbados, there is

Groom's Name: Joseph Jordan
Bride's Name: Jane Piggott
Marriage Date: 29 May 1777
Marriage Place: Saint Michael,Barbadoes,Caribbean
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M51395-3
System Origin: Caribbean-ODM
Collection: Caribbean Marriages, 1591-1905


Might be a little early for an 1803 birth, but still *worth investigating*.

Mentioning the Piggott name on his child's baptism record (and, in fact, giving all information you have, as the instructions post advises) would have been useful too.

We understand what you're looking for. No problem on that score, really. If someone had found a birth for your Arthur, they would have let you know.

We don't have magic wands, or access to secret caches of information. ;-)

Finding things that seem possibly related and investigating them can help find what one is looking for.

For example: who was Thomasin Jordan, mother of the 1832 APJ? Single woman? Any record of her birth etc? are questions that may be worth looking into, since it certainly seems possible she was a sister of your 1903 AJ -- or maybe a first wife/partner.

You could investigate Piggott events in Barbados as well.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html

It's what I'd do, looking for any patterns. Someone with a surname as a given name could have been baptised under that surname, if it was his mother's surname and he was born before marriage, for instance, or if it was his father's surname and he adopted a stepfather's surname upon his mother's remarriage.

By the way, the only occurrence of the word "thank" I see on this page is in my sig line ...

This maybe a relation and a possible lead but my Arthur is born in 1803 and this one is much later. I do believe they may be related but how is the mystery and the link I am missing. What I need is to know where in Barbados and to whom Arthur was born in 1803

too late but maybe related


Name: Arthur Piggott Jordan
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 24 Jun 1832
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT ANDREW,BARBADOES,CARIBBEAN
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name:
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Thomasin Jordan
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C51390-1
System Origin: Caribbean-ODM
Source Film Number: 1157939
Reference Number:

Teresa

I think he is a piggot Jordan as one child has that name on baptism. But I still have not been able to find his birth in barbados

1. ARTHUR JORDAN - International Genealogical Index / CX
Gender: Male Christening: 17 JUN 1865 Saint John, Barbados, Caribbean

2. ARTHUR PIGGOTT JORDAN - International Genealogical Index / CX
Gender: Male Christening: 24 JUN 1832 Saint Andrew, Barbados, Caribbean

3. ARTHUR AUGUSTUS JORDAN - International Genealogical Index / CX
Gender: Male Christening: 12 MAR 1859 Christ Church, Barbados, Caribbean

4. ARTHUR HENRY GORDON JORDAN - International Genealogical Index / CX
Gender: Male Christening: 25 MAY 1870 Saint Michael, Barbados, Caribbean

5. ARTHUR LIONEL JORDAN - International Genealogical Index / CX
Gender: Male Christening: 23 FEB 1869 Saint Peter, Barbados, Caribbean

Yes I did find her but unfortunately have not made a connection.
I have as yet not tried military but will look into that

So ... did you try what I suggested, the military records database?


I had done a quick search of 1851 for people born c1803 in Barbados. Are you familiar with this one?

Name: Sarah M D Jordan
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Relation: Head - widow, fundholder
Where born: Barbados

Civil parish: St Pancras
County/Island: Middlesex


The coincidence of surname, age and place of birth seems rather striking.

I know nothing about his life in Barbados or whether his family were military or not. His name is Arthur Jordan born 1803 Barbados. He appears to be a bit of a ladies man. He appears in the 1851 census living with an Elizabeth Jordan and children,but they are not married as he already has a family including by g.gt.grandmother Eleanor and sister Isabella and their mother. I know he is their father as I have their marriage certs. Both state father profession as artist. He also appears on the 1961 census as artist with same woman Elizabeth. I found him also on 1841 census very sketchy detail but is stated as picture dealer not born in this country and also has another wife Susan. She appears on the 1851 census without him obviously as he is with Elizabeth profession stated wife of a picture dealer. I am sure this is all the same man. He died in the workhouse in Lambeth 1869 occupation artist. Altogether with these three woman he has a total of about 14 children many of which died, and many are not baptised including my gggrandmother but her sister Catherine known as Clara is baptised stating father Arthur occupation artist.
I would really like to find out more about him as he appears to be quite an interesting charactor. I hope I have given enough details.

It's possible his father was in the British military maybe?

My grx3 grandfather was in Grenada at that time, for instance.

I found his military records here:

British Army Service Records 1760-1913

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/chelsea-pensioners-service-records-collection-search-start.action

I could do the search but not see the images of the records since I don't subscribe. A couple of kind members here checked them for me and sent me copies.

If the surname isn't hugely common you might be able to identify a couple of possibles and the details in the records could help rule someone in or out.

As Lynski says, the details are needed, for anyone to help.

Good idea to read the post pinned at the top of the board about how to post a request, just for guidance.

You could put his details here and members might be able to help you find him?

You could try

www.familysearch.org

I am seeking advise as how to find my g.g.gt grandfathers birth born in 1803 described in UK 1841,51 and 61 census as British Subject born Barbados. I have drawn a complete blank. Most of the information about British settlers in the colonies and births finish in 1800. I only have him from 1841 in this country. Has anyone any ideas as to how to get this information as I would be grateful for any help however small.