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Margaret sorry to hear you are in such pain.

As we have all said you really need the birth cert of John Jam3es or his sister Mary Jane Burton which have both been put on here for you. You can order them online through the GRO index. It is well worth the money to be sure of her surname.
Mel

Good afternoon everyone who is trying to help. I am sorry I have been away for so long but I am in excrutiating pain with my hip/knee and can hardly stand or sit comfortably. However, I am extremely appreciative of all your help.

Firstly, John James Burton is indeed the son of John Burton and Mary Elizabeth Gebbie(sometimes spelled Gibbie). He was born in Drury Lane, London and his father John Burton was a 'gentlemens coachman'. After beginning their lives in Coggeshall the family all appear to have moved to London.

The next link to John James Burton's line is his daughter Christiana Sarah Burton b. 1878 Peckham who then went on to marry a Ralph Leslie Rose and so on up to the present date, all in the London area. The only real stumbling block has been establishing the surname of Sarah.

I have made a note of everything here and agree that Sarah Cowell now seems rather unlikely and am making a note of Sarah possibly being Cutler but I will not include this on the tree until and if it is ever proved.

Thank you all again so much for your sterling efforts.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Mary Elizabeth Gebbie
Name: Mary Elizabeth Gebbie
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date:25th Jan 1859 ********
Baptism Date: 13 Mar 1859
Father's name: Duncan Gebbie GRAINER
Mother's name: Christiana Gebbie
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Marylebone
Borough: Westminster

Did your John James Burton 1853 marry Mary Elizabeth Gibbie please.

Marriage 1877?

Wedding 30th Sept his father John Burton Coachman her father Duncan Stuart Gibbie Grainer.

Witnesses are Duncan Stuart Gibbie and Sarah Ann Burton. ?? John's sister.........................

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Mary Elizabeth Gobber
Name: Mary Elizabeth Gobber
[Mary Elizabeth Gibbie]
Spouse Name: John James Burton
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 31 Sep 1877
Parish: St Mary, Paddington Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: Haman Gobber **reads Duncan Stuart Gibbie occ Grainer
Spouse Father Name: John Burton Coachman

John james is also a Grainer on the marriage.

Have been looking at this thread and the bap that Dea put up for Mary Jane Burton with the address of Cold Harbour Place goes with the 1861 census for this family as their address on this census is Sun and Doves Cottages and the entry after this family is Cold Harbour Place.

You really need one of the childrens birth certs to find the mothers maiden name.

1861 England Census
about John James Burton
Name: John James Burton
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Burton
Mother's name: Sarah Burton
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 3
Piece: 365
Folio: 3
Page Number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
John Burton 37
Sarah Burton 33
John James Burton 8
Sarah Ann Burton 5
Mary Jane Burton 3
Alfred R Burton 1
RG9; Piece: 365; Folio: 3; Page: 1



Mel

That is going to be the only way Margaret,

As Flick says, you need to buy that cert.

I have looked everywhere but cannot find proof that he did marry Sarah Cutler in 1852 , but he certainly didn't marry Sarah Cowell.

All I have found is a couple of probable christnings which are of no help at all:

Name: John James Burton
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 12 Dec 1852
Baptism/Christening Place: HOLY TRINITY KINGSWAY,HOLBORN,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 11 Nov 1852

Father's Name: John Burton
Mother's Name: Sarah

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04221-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 579295

......................

Name: Mary Jane Burton
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1858
Baptism Date: 14 Mar 1858
Father's name: John Burton , Coachman
Mother's name: Sarah Burton
Parish or Poor Law Union: Camberwell St Giles
Borough: Southwark

Address - Cold Harbour Place

...............

Let us know what it says on there and we can help you further.

Dea x

If John James is 100% your relation........buy his birth cert to get factual info about his mother

Name: John James Burton
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1852
Registration district: St Giles
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 332

Margaret - you certainly have the wrong couple on 1851 (with the Cowell's)

This couple are still together, with their family on 1861 so it is not 'your' John !!

I am still looking for him for you.......................

Dea x

Good Morning Margaret.

For info - this is the 1861 census you have John James on.

Are you TOTALLY sure that this is 'your' John James, before we start?

1861 England Census
about John James Burton Name: John James Burton
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Burton
Mother's name: Sarah Burton
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England


Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 3
Piece: 365
Folio: 3
Page Number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
John Burton 37 ... Gentleman's Coachman. b. Coggershall
Sarah Burton 33 b Horksley, Essex
John James Burton 8 b. London, Middx
Sarah Ann Burton 5 b Camberwell, Surrey
Mary Jane Burton 3 ............ ""
Alfred R Burton 1 ............... ""

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 365; Folio: 3; Page: 1; GSU roll: 542623.

.............

What else do you know about him, i.e. how does he connect to your family please?

Dea x

Morning Margaret,
There are four possible births for John James in London between 1848-1858:


Name John James Burton
Year of Registration 1848
Quarter of Registration Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District London City
Registration County London
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 2
Page 184


Name John James Burton
Year of Registration 1852
Quarter of Registration Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District St. Giles
Registration County London
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 1B
Volume Page 332



Name James John Burton
Year of Registration 1851
Quarter of Registration Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District St. Pancras
Registration County London
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 1
Volume Page 342






and unlikely:

Name John James Burton
Year of Registration 1855
Quarter of Registration Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District Shoreditch
Registration County London
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 1C
Volume Page 183

Perchino - thank you for that - I will try and find all three and see what it says. It may be tomorrow before I do as quite honestly I have had enough today searching for him !!

Dea - thank you for your help. I hadn't realised that they only 'rounded down' on 1841. !! Like you, I am calling it a day for now and will resume tomorrow when my brain has had a rest !!

Residents of West Street:

Address West Street
Parish Great Coggeshall
District Witham, Coggeshall
Administrative County Essex
Householder 1
Name John Burton
Age 40
Estimated Year of Birth 1801
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 2
Name Amelia Burton
Age 40
Estimated Year of Birth 1801
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 3
Name John Burton
Age 20
Estimated Year of Birth 1821
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 4
Name Rebecca Burton
Age 18
Estimated Year of Birth 1823
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 5
Name Edward Burton
Age 15
Estimated Year of Birth 1826
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 6
Name Henry Burton
Age 13
Estimated Year of Birth 1828
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 7
Name Amelia Burton
Age 15
Estimated Year of Birth 1826
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 8
Name Rachel Burton
Age 12
Estimated Year of Birth 1829
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 9
Name Eliza Burton
Age 10
Estimated Year of Birth 1831
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 10
Name William Burton
Age 8
Estimated Year of Birth 1833
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 11
Name Sarah Burton
Age 8
Estimated Year of Birth 1833
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 12
Name Arther Burton
Age 1
Estimated Year of Birth 1840
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex

1841 never 'rounded up',- they 'rounded down' !!

Never trust Ancestry trees - a lot of them (not all), are compltely made up rubbish !!

Have to go to bed now but will 'pop in' in the morning to see how you are getting on !!

Best of luck.

Dea Xxx

Three possible John Burton on 1841 Census:

Burton John 1826 Essex Witham, Coggeshall View
Burton John 1821 Essex Witham, Coggeshall View
Burton John 1821 Essex Witham, Coggeshall

Name John Burton
Age 15
Estimated Year of Birth 1826
Relationship to Head of Household

Name John Burton
Age 20
Estimated Year of Birth 1821
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation
Address West Street
District Witham, Coggeshall
Parish Great Coggeshall
Administrative County Essex
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Name John Burton
Age 20
Estimated Year of Birth 1821
Relationship to Head of Household
Occupation
Address West Street
District Witham, Coggeshall
Parish Great Coggeshall
Administrative County Essex
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex

Occupation Juvenile
Address Hamlet
District Witham, Coggeshall
Parish Little Coggeshall
Administrative County Essex
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex

In the middle of trying to sort out this age thing and make some positive identification, I was silly enough to look on Ancestry trees to see if someone else had John Burton b. 1824 and they had, but they had the wife as Sarah Cutler. I made a note of this to bear in mind, but then tried to prove it as I do all the information I use. Then I came across the 1851 which showed the stepmother bit and decided that maybe they were mistaken. On 1841 census John Burton living West Street is listed as 20 (I suspect rounded up from 17) but he is 32 on 1851. Also on 1851 census Sarah is given as born Coggeshall but on later census returns her birthplace is Hocksley, Essex. Thank you for trying anyway. I do appreciate it.

and there are two possible deaths for Robert Cowell (one in 1842 and one in 1850) both in Witham (which is only 5 miles from Coggeshall) and one of these might explain why Ann was living with her daughter?

What made you think that she was Sarah Cutler ???

Dea x

Dea - nothing to forgive. It is much clearer the way you have set it out. Thank you.

I think most of your facts could be right. The ages in some of the censuses are rounded so they can be as much as +/-5 years out on some years. They were also notorious for getting words mixed up and several times I have seen the word "step" as in "stepmother" used when they actually mean "mother-in-law". If you look at the 1841 census for this Ann Cowell b. Coggeshall, she is there with husband Robert b. 1796 (she b. 1791) together with Sarah b. 1814, Henry (b. 1831 and the other person living with the married couple on the 1851 census) and two other children. So bearing in mind this and the fact you only found a marriage for Burton/Cowell and not Burton/Cutler, seems to show this is more probable match?

Thank you for your reply Perchino. I looked at the census on Ancestry and yes I did look on the original document as I was so puzzled. Thank you for your interest. I will check on the gentleman you told me about.