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let us know when you get the birth certificate, almost certainly it will confirm the info in this thread, from what you say

the two families, it sounds like one with your nan and one with your nan's mother, unfortunately

this is him in 1881

Name: John Panter
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edward Panter
Mother's Name: Sarah A. Panter
Gender: Male
Where born: Lavendon, Buckinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Lavendon
County/Island: Buckinghamshire

Edward Panter 36
Sarah A. Panter 35
John Panter 14
George Panter 12
Elizabeth Panter 9
William T. Panter 6
Joseph J. Panter 3
Albert E. Panter

so by the time he married Ellen's mother he was still quite young

the other two children from 1891, Mary Ann's daughters, are here in 1901

Name: Lily Panter
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Lavendon, Buckinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Lavendon

Anne Fruman 88
Lily Panter 12
Charlotte Panter 10


Mary Ann, your nan's mum, had just died

Deaths Mar 1901
Panter Mary Ann 35 Newport P. 3a 526

since John and Mary Ann married in 1888, Lily and Charlotte are their children

however the children in 1901

John Panter 34
Nellie Johnson 16
Mabel Johnson 5
Susan Johnson 2

... no, thankfully, Ancestry ( as usual ) has transcribed that incorrectly, those two children are shown as Panter on the image so they would be Mary Ann's children ... both are registered as Panter

I wonder whether that is the Susan in your list though


for info I think this is Lily

Marriages Mar 1910
Fowler George Wellingbro' 3b 260
PANTER Lily Wellingbro' 3b 260

1911 census, born in Lavendon

FOWLER LILY 1889 22 Wellingborough Northamptonshire

in the 1911 census there are two people named Charlotte born around 1891 in Lavendon

CARTER CHARLOTTE 1891 20 Newport Pagnell Buckinghamshire
PANTER CHARLOTTE 1891 20 Northampton ( servant )

and I suspect she is the one in Northampton

but I don't see a marriage or death for her

There is no stated names of parents on the certificate I have so shall order birth cert.

Pamela is no longer living,she passed when I was younger. She is registered under deaths as Pamela Brightman. I know she has a son but have not had contact with him since my nans death.

My dad thinks that my nans dad was named John Panter and that he had 2 famalies, 1 with my nans mum and 1 with anothe woman. Seemingly he was rather a player.

I believe that her sister Laura (also a Mynard as married my Gramps brother Kenneth G Mynard) is still alive and lives in The Isle of White. I don't think that there are any others living, or not to my dads knowledge anyway

Miriam you named these siblings of Ethel

Gertrude, Annie, Jane, Ray, Laura, Sue and Mary, all supposedly Panters

did you look at the list for the 1911 census up above in the thread ?

living with John Panter and Ellen Johnson are

* PANTER, Annie Daughter F 9 1902 Bucks Lavendon
PANTER, John Son M 6 1905 Bucks Lavendon
* PANTER, Gertie Daughter F 4 1907 Northants Easton Maudit
PANTER, Ada Daughter F 2 1909 Bucks Lavendon

it seems these are likely all children of Ellen and her stepfather John

Gertrude married as Johnson, 1927 ?

here is one other possible birth to match your list of names

Births Sep 1922
Johnson Laura B Johnson Newport P. 3a 1740

if you go to http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

you can do the search I did, select Newport Pagnell for the district and search for births with surname Johnson and mother Johnson to see the dozen or so births up to 1928 with those names

if Pamela was born in the late 1930s there is a Pamela Johnson with mother Johnson born in Wycombe ... ?

... but there was also a Pamela Panter born just a little earlier in Newport Pagnell ( father was a Panter )


I just got your private message, you're welcome and thanks for replying :-)

hi Miriam, what we need to know from Ethel's birth registration is her mother's name :-) ( father's if it is there too of course )

is Pamela living ? if not and if it is agreed to by any family of hers you could tell us what you know of her ( date of birth ) if you want to know more.

also if you give us that kind of info about her siblings ( assuming they are deceased or agree or their families agree ) we could try to find those records as well

if what you have for Ethel is not her 'long form' birth certificate showing her mother's name then you definitely have to purchase that from the site I gave, it should take only about a week I believe

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

without that starting point there is nowhere to go to trace her origins


( if you hit the 'enter' key twice at the end of a sentence it will space your messages out for us so they are easier to read ... and now click on 2 down at the bottom to go to the next page, many people don't notice this :-) )

Right hi all and thanks for all the input. I am very new to all of this and don't have much of an idea how to go about finding info and also have very limited information to begin with. I do have the certificate of registry of birth for my nan but assume this is not the same as an actual birth cert. So the info I have about her is as follows: Ethel Ruby Panter Johnson, born on 7th Feb 1914, district of Newport Pagnell, sub-district of Olney,Buckinghamshire. Her siblings that I know of are Gertrude, Annie, Jane, Ray, Laura, Sue and Mary, all supposedly Panters yet I can't find any record of them. My nan Ethel married Ernest Charles Mynard in 1936 and went on to 'adopt' a daughter Pamela Mynard(although I have reason to believe she was in fact the daughter of nans sister Laura) and give birth to my dad Peter Charles Mynard. I suspect there may be some cover ups in the family on my nans side as there has nener been any birth records uncovered and my nan destroyed Pamelas in front of my dad so he could never see it,odd me thinks?! I personally just want to trace my roots and make a note of our family history to pass on to my children in the hope that the future generations will be able to know where they originate from as I feel that there are not enough of my age interested in doing so. So thank you all so very much for the advice and info you are providing me with x

oh dear, my mild surmise seems to have unleased the whirlwind !

I sometimes think how we all know that such situations existed ( and exist ) and still we don't think of them when it comes to researching our own families.

I am going to send Miriam a private message to explain about checking her thread and prepare her a little for the possibility raised here :-)

hi Miriam

Have you got Ediths birth certificate ?

You can leave a reply and feedback by typing into the "Add your reply" box at the bottom of your posting (Thread) and clicking on the Submit button

Best wishes
Barbara x

This site seems to say that the wedding is not legal in the UK now and it looks like it would not have been in 1928 ?

http://www.weddingguideuk.com/articles/legal/prohibited.asp

Perhaps someone knows more about this sort of thing??

You really DO need to get that marriage cert.

Dea x

That is what I thought. Dea.

It may of course not be her "Stepfather" she married --but a Panter relative named John ?? Hence the marriage cert needed for Johns age and occ.

That is if of course, if Ellen was Ethel's mum !!

Barbara xx

It looks as if Ellen's marriage to John 'may' have been legal as there was no 'proved' blood relationship, however, she had been brought up from around the age of 2 as his 'daughter' so it seems a very strange thing to do !!!

Dea x

oops---- def the birth cert for Ethel Ruby Panter Johnson needed for her mums name, Thank you Dea, I hadn't looked back on the census, so missed that !!

Barbara x

It doesn't look as if there will be a father named on her birth cert - this is her baptism:


Search collectionAbout this collection
Name: Ellen Maude Johnson
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 13 Jun 1886
Baptism/Christening Place: Little Missenden, Buckingham, England

Father's Name:
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Johnson

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04334-4
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1966914
Reference Number: 18321 Page 81

Dea x

John's marriage to Mary Ann:

Marriages Jun 1888

***JOHNSON Mary Ann Newport P. 3a 901
PANTER Elizabeth Newport P 3a 901
***PANTER John Newport P 3a 901
Smith Charles Newport P. 3a 901


SO, it would transpire that Ellen was the illigitimate daughter of John's first wife Mary Ann Johnson.

I don't know if it was legal at the time to marry such a relative?

Dea x

1891, she is again, his 'daughter' - using her middle name 'Maud':

1891 England Census
about John Panter Name: John Panter
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Panter
Gender: Male
Where born: Lavendon, Buckinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Lavendon
Ecclesiastical parish: Lavendon
Town: Lavendon
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Country: England


Registration district: Newport Pagnell
Sub-registration district: Olney
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1153
Folio: 87
Page Number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
John Panter 23
Mary Ann Panter 25
Maud Panter 6 .............. Maud JOHNSON on original image !!
Lily Panter 2
Charlotte Panter 11/12

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 1153; Folio 87; Page 19; GSU roll: 6096263.

Dea x

Oooo - I think you need some certs here - 1901 seems to have Ellen down as John's daughter ????



1901 England Census
about John Panter Name: John Panter
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Lavendon, Buckinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Lavendon
Ecclesiastical parish: Lavendon St Mary
Town: Lavendon
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Country: England


Registration district: Newport Pagnell
Sub-registration district: Olney
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 55
Piece: 1364
Folio: 81
Page Number: 9
Household Members: Name Age
John Panter 34 shepherd on farm
Nellie Johnson 16 ............... daughter !!! Housekeeper for father!
Mabel Johnson 5
Susan Johnson 2



Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 1364; Folio: 81; Page: 9.

I will look back further!

Dea x

Maybe Death index for Ellen and John ??

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about John Panter Name: John Panter
Birth Date: abt 1866
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1954
Age at Death: 88
Registration district: North Bucks
Inferred County: Buckinghamshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 292

=====================================

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Ellen M Panter Name: Ellen M Panter
Birth Date: abt 1885
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1964
Age at Death: 79
Registration district: North Bucks
Inferred County: Buckinghamshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 413

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Birth index for Ellen ??

Births Dec 1884

Johnson Ellen Maud Newport P. 3a 713

EDIT--PLEASE SEE DEA's POSTS BELOW


You will need Ethel Ruby Panter Johnson Birth certificate--to see if her mum is Ellen M Johnson

and if it is you will need Ellen M's marriage to see details for spouse --age, occ etc


1911 census ??

1911 census transcription details for: Olney Road Lavendon Olney

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN8010 RG78PN403 RD148 SD3 ED15 SN102
Reg. District: Newport Pagnell Sub District: Olney
Parish: Lavendon Enum. District: 15

Address: Olney Road Lavendon Olney
County: Buckinghamshire


Name Relation Condition/ Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born


PANTER, John Head Widower M 44 1867 Farm Labourer Bucks Lavendon

JOHNSON, Ellen Servant Single F 26 1885 Housekeeper Domestic Bucks Newton Blossomville

PANTER, Mabel Daughter F 14 1897 Lift Making For Shoes Ucks Cold Brayfield

PANTER, Annie Daughter F 9 1902 Bucks Lavendon

PANTER, John Son M 6 1905 Bucks Lavendon

PANTER, Gertie Daughter F 4 1907 Northants Easton Maudit

PANTER, Ada Daughter F 2 1909 Bucks Lavendon



Barbara x

she married as Panter ...

Name: Ethel R Panter
Spouse Surname: Mynard
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1936
Registration district: North Buckinghamshire
Inferred County: Buckinghamshire
Volume Number: 3a
Page Number: 3767

is it possible that her parents married after her birth ?

Marriages Mar 1928
JOHNSON Ellen M Panter Newport P. 3a 1475
PANTER John Johnson Newport Pagnell 3a 1475

there are 2 Panter-Johnson births in Newport Pagnell, 1922 and 1933

there is a very good chance by the way that her father's surname was Panter

if an unmarried father chose not to register a child's birth in his name or was not available the mother often gave that name to the child as a second or third given name

if you provide the mother's full name we can help identify her birth and find her in the 1911 census assuming she would be in Newport Pagnell, which might not be safe to assume

in the 1911 census there are these young men named Panter in Newport Pagnell

PANTER THOMAS JAMES 1896 15
PANTER FRANCIS N F H 1895 16
PANTER PERCY 1895 16
PANTER PERCY 1891 20
PANTER RICHARD 1891 20
PANTER HARRY 1890 21

and also of course men born before 1890 ... just as an idea of who the candidates might be ;)

when you say you can't track mother ... do you mean you have the birth certificate with her name but can't identify her ?

please do give all the information you have !

if you do not have the birth certificate for what Ozibird posted you need to order it

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

if you do have the mother's name would you provide it here, and have you looked for a marriage after that date ?

unfortunately a common surname ........