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My further research suggests a connection between John 1797 and John 1825:
A Marriage Record Hanover Square, Westminster gives a John Nicholls married Mary Ann Abercrombie 11.10.1824 (I have copy).
The 1841 Census gives John 1825 (?9 months after above marriage) as family firstborn with parents John and Mary born 1803.
John's Marriage Cert May 1848 to Rhoda Catherine Marrett records father John deceased (I have copy)
1881 Census includes John and Rhoda's family including their first born as John Abercrombie born 1848.
? any comments please

so just for the record this is the baptism you are looking at

name: John Nicholl
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 30 Apr 1797
baptism/christening place: LITTLE HADHAM,HERTFORD,ENGLAND
father's name: Zachariah Nicholl
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: C04789-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 477641

the question is the marriage, what the 'data' are ... did somebody find a John Nicholls & Abercrombie marriage and think oh yes, that must be where the Abercrombie name came from ... or is there some record that connects that marriage to this Nicholls family ...

here is the Mary Abercrombie in question I suppose but still no indication of a connection

name: Mary Abbercrombie
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 02 Oct 1803
baptism/christening place: Stockton, Norfolk, England
father's name: Hugh Abbercrombie
mother's name: Elizabeth Jermany
indexing project (batch) number: I02367-0
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1951632

it is possible that someone picked that birth purely on the basis of the year ? with no other reason to think connected

in 1841 that Mary Nicholls shows as born in county ( Middlesex ) ... so does John ...

of course that is not conclusive ... but it does not match with one person born in Hertfordshire and one person born in Norfolk

I can't identify any of the rest of the family in 1851 ...

do you have any record of the Nicholls Abercrombie marriage you can show us ?

Sorry to say that I got my GGrandfather listing wrong. John 1825 was my Greatgrandfather and father was Frederick Charles born 3.8.1856 brother of John Abercrombie. Re John 1797 - data giving birth at Little Hadham indicates that his wife was a Mary Ann nee Abercrombie born Stockton, Norfolk which tends to confirm that the connection is correct, but could be coincidental.
The Little Hadham data came from Christening Records with John born 25.3.1797, father Zachariah and mother Mary.

hi Maurice, you dunnit again ... sent me a private message instead of posting in the thread :-)

this is the message you sent me



Dear Chrissie
As prompted by Cynthia I would be pleased if you can help re

John Nicholls born 10.7.1928 in London. Initial data was from a tree produced by John’s granddaughter a Winnie Owen and gave data on all John and his wife Rhoda Catherine nee Marrett’s children.

John’s Wedding Cert. 5.5.1848 gives his father at John (deceased).
The 1841 Census for St. Margarets, Westminster includes John aged 16 and Father John aged 44.

Later Census gives John born Chelsea, Bloomsbury and siblings as Winnie’s list.

I have been unable to locate his Birth Cert.

Researching for John 1797 details suggest born Little Hadham, Herts. I do want to be sure that this is the correct father.

Your help will be much appreciated



I am terribly busy these next couple of days myself but adding this message here will nudge the thread back up to the top of the board and hopefully someone else will take a look at it for you before I can !

remember that there will be no birth certificate for someone born before 1837 ( and many born after then )

if you have details for John 1797 you should post them here and say where they came from, that is the idea I have been getting at


oh and Maurice if you want the most people to look at the thread you need to 'untick' my post up near the top that you have marked as 'answered'

many people are confused by that ... the 'answered' tick is for when your questions have all been answered so people know the thread does not need any more help

you should see a thing for un-marking it at the top of that post somewhere ... I can't see it because it is your thread and only you can do that :-)

okay Maurice well that didn't really do the trick

too often we here have relied on people's family histories and found too late that they were all wrong, we have traced ( or spent a lot of time trying to trace ) two or three generations of the wrong family ... it happened just this month when I finally figured out that someone had called the wrong 'Charles' his great-grandfather and landed up in the wrong county around 1850

when you say John Nichols 1825 was your great-great-grandfather ... does this mean that John Abercrombie Nicholls was your great-grandfather ? and you do have an actual certificate of something for this, John Abercrombie's marriage certificate or the birth certificate of his child your grandparent ?

I for one have had it happen too often that people's handed down family trees were just all wet so those are the questions I need answers to :-)

we all understand what you are looking for ... we just need, as it says in the instructions, the information that -you- have first

John Nicholls 1825 was my Great Great Grandfather and the initial data that I received was a family tree from his GG Granddaughter a Winnie Owen. The tree listed all 13 children of John's with dates of births, these dates basically match ages given in Censuses 1851 to 1881 including John Abercrombie. My main query concerns Johns Census birth location London and ? father John 1797 and Family in Little Hadham.
Thanks for your efforts, Maurice

I guess we can assume that with a name like John Abercrombie Nicholls ( and spelling does count ! ) then Maurice knows his descent from there, it would be hard to mistake if your ancestor had that name ... but it would still be nice to have confirmation, that John Abercrombie was the father shown on somebody's birth or marriage certificate


one of the first questions Maurice was do you have the marriage certificate of John and Rhoda and is this how you know that John's father was John ?


1861 census

Name: John Nicholls
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Rhoda Catherine Nicholls
Gender: Male
* Where born: Bloomsbury, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Luke

John Nicholls 35
Rhoda Catherine Nicholls 34
John Nicholls 12
Rhoda Mary Nicholls 10
Eliza Nicholls 6
Frederick Nicholls 4
Esther Nicholls 2


so definitely this marriage

Marriages Jun 1848
Marrett Rhoda Catherine Lambeth 4 336
NICHOLLS John Lambeth 4 336

from familysearch

groom's name: John Nicholls
bride's name: Rhoda Catherine Marrett
marriage date: 05 May 1848
marriage place: St. Mary'S, Lambeth, Surrey, England
groom's father's name: John Nicholls
bride's father's name: William Marrett
indexing project (batch) number: I03344-0
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1041649

but it would still be wise to have the certificate, it would give John Sr's occupation hopefully and that is very useful to have ... also the address at the time of marriage and the witnesses' names ...

It's been opened now so, hopefully, Maurice will work out how to get back here and respond on the thread as requested. :-D


Cx

but Maurice sent me a PM :-)



Thanks so much for your reply.
Data that I have is that John was born in Chelsea, he had a son called John Abbercrombe, his family lived in Westminster, his father was a John.
There was a John 1797 born Little Hadham, Herts who married a Mary nee Abercrombe and had family including a John 16 at 1841.
In the absence of a birth Cert. for John 1825 I have wanted to prove that I have the right parents of his.
I will appreciate any help you could give.
Regards, Maurice



Maurice the thing to do is reply in the thread as we have all done ... you use the 'add reply' box at the bottom of the page

that way everyone can see your info and it saves you sending multiple private messages and it saves us trying to find the thread they are about :-)


now what we need is for you to answer some of the questions ... how do you have an exact birth date for your John ?

we need to know how you have got back to your John ... which child of his are you descended from and how have you established that line ?

unfortunately very often it turns out that people are on wild goose chases because they have gone off on a wrong track, so can you tell us how you trace your line back to John Abbercrombe ( is that John Abbercrombe Nicholls ? ) ?


for info

Births Sep 1848
NICHOLLS John Abercrombie Westminster 1 423

Marriages Sep 1868
Nicholls John Abercrombie Hackney 1b 611

I sent Maurice advice on how to find his replies yesterday, but the message hasn't been opened as yet Cx.

not much use posting every John Nicholls' information ... until Maurice decides to give the information he has ...


this seems to be the one Maurice is referring to

name: John Nichols
event type: Birth
birth date: 10 Jul 1825
birthplace: Holborn, Middlesex
father's name: John Nichols
mother's name: Mary Nichols
record set: RG8_0061

but it doesn't seem to be too reliable ... it is also shown at familysearch as

name: John Nicholls
event type: Baptism
christening date: 21 Jul 1825
christening place: Holborn, Middlesex
father's name: John Nicholls
mother's name: Mary Nicholls
record set: RG8_0066

name: John Nicholls
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 27 Jul 1825
baptism/christening place: Holborn, Middlesex, England
father's name: John Nicholls
mother's name: Mary
indexing project (batch) number: I01113-6
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1818020


the last two are possibly different readings of the same date, 21 or 27 July

the first one with the birth date is probably a submitted record that may or may not be correct

what we don't know is how Maurice knows or decided that this is his John

HN NICHOLS Pedigree
Male
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: 25 MAR 1825

Christening: 07 OCT 1825 Saint Giles Cripplegate, London, London, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: JAMES NICHOLS Family
Mother: ELLEN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

JOHN NICHOLLS Pedigree
Male


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 17 JUL 1825 Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, London, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: THOMAS NICHOLLS Family
Mother: SOPHIA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

there are at least eight John Nicxholls' born in London area in 1825 - what other information do you have on him please :-)

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about John Nicholls Name: John Nicholls (Servant)
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Spouse Name: Rhodes Marrett
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 05 May 1848
Parish: St Mary at Lambeth
County: Surrey
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: John Nicholls (Shopkeeper)
Spouse Father Name: William Marrett

Andy

Ages were rounded down to nearest five on 1841 census.
So if that's were you took his DOB from, it may not be accurate.

More information is needed to pinpoint which John Nicholls you mean.

the 1841 census does not give place of birth ... did you mean 1851 ? it is important to give accurate information ... is this him ?


Name: John Nicholls
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Rhoda Nicholls
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Westminster St John The Evangelist
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
County/Island: Middlesex
Registration district: Westminster

John Nicholls 25 footman ?
Rhoda Nicholls 24 dressmaker born n St Margts Westr
John Nicholls 2
Rhoda Nicholls 11 MO


did you get his father's name from his marriage certificate ?

unless you do that you can't know whether you have the right family in the 1841 census


this looks like the closest match in 1841, they are in Westminster

Name: John Nicholls
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1797
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Margaret
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex
Registration district: Westminster

John Nicholls 44 labourer
Mary Nicholls 37
* John Nicholls 16
Mary Nicholls 14
Elizabeth Nicholls 8
Hester Nicholls 6
Alfred Nicholls 3
Matha Nicholls 1
Matha Dugas 16

1841 Census says in Chelsea. Father also John ? where was he born
Maurice