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I think 'harp' means the official seal that shows it is a certified true copy, for Ireland the seal symbol is the harp

it's cheaper to get a photocopy that isn't certified true copy but it has all the information on it, a certified true copy isn't needed for family history ( you need a certified true copy to prove you are married if your spouse dies or some such )

I don't know whether the certificate will show more than what you have but maybe ages and witnesses ?

Hi Clover, Just a quick thank you for your advice & help, I think I'm knocking down a Brick wall that has been bugging me for a long time with all the help from you and all the helpers here on" Community", again a big THANK YOU to you all.

But can I ask what is "Harp", please not sure what you mean, I will be sending for a full copy, as prefer it as it can be a source of information as well,

I have Civil Marriage record for Henry Mckenna & Ellen Sullivan, 07 Jan 1869, Kilkenny District 1.
Henry is listed as Sub Constable RIC, fathers name James Mckenna.
Ellen Sullivan is listed as Dress maker, fathers name John Sullivan.

Regards Nemises.
:-)

Hi Nemises,
M,Kenna Henry Kilkenny 1869 Volumn 3 Page 529
Sullivan Ellen Jane Kilkenny 1869 Volumn 3 Page 529

------------------------------------------------------------------------l-
You can order an photocopy of Marraige from gro.
Everything will be on Cert except Harp and costs only 4-5euros,, whereas true copy cost 10euros.
All information that you need is on here, there was no quarters included until about 1875ish.
Dublin only holds true copies of births registered in all Ireland (including) Northern Ireland from 1864 to 1922 when the North stayed in U.K. and South became a Republic.
From 1922 B,M,Ds are held in Dublin for the whole of the Republic.
Space or lack of is reason given .
Roscommon does hold all B.M.Ds from 1864 as well as Non Catholic Marraiges from 1845.
Proni in the north of Ireland hold 6 county B.M.Ds from 1922 to present date.
Hope you can understand what i mean.
Betty.

Thank you Chrissiex for your response will come back to you when I have more info & or wedding cert, :-)

regards Nemises.

I don't know what is on Ancestry myself, I don't have a subscription right now

the info I gave was from https://www.familysearch.org

I believe if youwant the info that is on the marriage certificate you need to get the certificate from GRO Ireland

http://www.groireland.ie/

http://www.groireland.ie/apply_for_a_cert.htm

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/find_a_service/bdm/certificates_ie

if the Ancestry info shows the father's name I probably would not worry about the spelling variation for McKenna MacKenna, the English were messing around with Irish names at that time

or Ancestry could just have mistranscribed it, it is spelled McKenna on the familysearch.org record, you would need to see the certificate to know for sure ... Ancestry mistranscribes things all the time

...... hm the information at the GRO Ireland site is confusing,

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/bdm/Certificates_ie/faq/#question1

it says you can order certificates for marriages from 1920, I don't know what that means for earlier certificates, registration started before 1869 ... maybe you just can't order earlier ones on line ... somebody who knows Ireland better needs to tell you how to go about it !

Thank you for your reply I now have Elizabeth Ann's death Cert d.05/03/1945 age 66yrs, I am now trying to trace Henry Mckenna & Ellen Jane Sullivan's wedding cert however on Ancestry search found 2 entry's 1869 Kilkenny, Ist Civil wedding as per your details and second a church wedding but didn't get details? , am having problems logging on Ancestry also civil wedding lists Henry's father as James "Mackenna", not Mckenna?, ,
By the way when Elizabeth started going to sea she had lied about her age by 5/6 years, her brother Jerome Joseph Mckenna, also went to sea for some time,

come on back when you have the certificate and let us know if there's more work to be done ... we don't mind the work just the tail-chasing :-)

it sounds like Elizabeth had an interesting life, she must have been at sea for all the censuses !

How can I say sorry it was just a chance I thought if she had married I might be able to find out more about her parents but again I'm going to apply for there marriage cert with the info you gave me so fingers crossed I succeed, and again I offer my apologies to all of you that tried to help.

regards Nemises.

Nemises ... where and when Henry Mckenna c1845 and Ellen Jane Mckenna c1848 married ?

I put this information in the thread on 22 Sept


the parents' marriage

Groom's Name: Henry Mckenna
Bride's Name: Ellen Jane Sullivan
Marriage Date: 07 Jan 1869
Marriage Place: Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Ireland
Groom's Father's Name: James Mckenna
Bride's Father's Name: John Sullivan
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M70241-3
System Origin: Ireland-EASy
Source Film Number: 101540
Reference Number: p527 rn163

there are a lot of other children listed too

Joseph Thomas 1878
John Michael 1877
Henry Sullivan 1872
Mary Josephine 1871
Ellen Jane 1874
Bernard John 1873
James Francis 1869



so now that you have determined that the death is your Elizabeth and she never married, you do understand that telling us she married in 1916 and asking about the marriage details was not really the right way to go about it :-)

Just to update have received death cert confirmed correct so I no longer think Elizabeth was ever married, it was a bit of a wild card I was hoping to find out further info on her parents as this is still a brick wall for me, am now trying to explore and find out where & when Henry Mckenna c1845 & Ellen Jane Mckenna c1848 born and married, maybe census details fingers crossed.

thanks again for you help

Nemesis, it's just one very clear thing here: a woman's death is always recorded in her married name if she is married, unless she had concealed her marriage from the person who registered the death, or had gone back to her birth name after a divorce.

so if your Elizabeth -was- married her death would virtually certainly not be recorded as McKenna

if you think that death is your Elizabeth all you can do is apply for the certificate and see whether the information on the certificate matches the information you have such as the date of death

what doesn't make sense is to pick out one marriage from all the possible marriages of an Elizabeth McKenna ( especially when yours had a middle name ) and ask other members for information about it when there is really no reason to think that marriage was your Elizabeth McKenna !

the name is far too common to be able to identify a marriage for her over such a long timespan and not knowing where it might have happened even ... only a certificate that matched her age and father's name would do that ...

but the two things really are almost certainly mutually exclusive

either
- she married
or
- her death is the one registered in Paddington in Mar Q 1945

Hi Chrissiex, I seem to have stirred up a bit of a wasp's nest, I have again Just looked up on Genes Deaths for Mar 1945 Elizabeth Mckenna is listed as I said before, Died MarQtr, Paddington, Vol 1a, Page 28. Regards how I know the date is as I said I was given several Photo's by my cousin and written on it is her date of death 5th March 1945.
Regarding as to whether or not she ever married I don't know for sure Hence my posting for more information about her and if she'd married any info of possible spouse & Children, I know that for many years she spent a long time on various ships as part of crew travelling the world might explain why married late in life, the sea figured a lot in her side of the family.
My great g/father Henry was in the RIC & RUC as a policeman until he retired and also some of his family also, I have births certs for all his nine children including Elizabeth Anne, Part of my tree is on Genes but not all of
it as it is about 1060 but I'm adding to it all the time, as I do I look up BDM and apply for certs I also go quite often to Kew Archive to research my tree.
Hope this answers some of the questions you asked and thank you again for showing so interest regards Nenesis.

Only 1 'Elizabeth A' death was registered in the March or June quarter of 1945 in Paddington with a birth year of 1876 calculated

Name: Elizabeth A Harris
Birth Date: abt 1876
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1945
Age at Death: 69
Registration district: Paddington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 8

however if your Elizabeth was born on 21 March 1876 and died on 05 March 1845 she was not yet 69 when she died

so this death could also match

Name: Elizabeth Lewis
Birth Date: abt 1877
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1945
Age at Death: 68
Registration district: Paddington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 59

but since you haven't said how you know her date and place of death ................

Nemesis, how could her death be in the name McKenna if that was her birth name and she was married ??

it is not a question of the age at death it is a question of the name !!

nobody can understand why you think the death of Elizabeth McKenna in 1945 is your Elizabeth


'I know she died 05 March 1945, Paddington, Vol 1a, Page 28, Jan-feb-mar, qtr. '

this is information from two different sources

'05 March 1945' ... this is from what is written on the photograph or some other family information ?

'Paddington, Vol 1a, Page 28, Jan-feb-mar, qtr.' ... this is registration info and the question is why you think that death registration is your Elizabeth whose name was not McKenna if she was married



when you mention 'a couple more replies' that you have received, is this information that is not here in the thread and would you add it here if so, so that everyone knows what other information has been found or searches done ?

Hi Chrissiex, thank you for your help with Elizabeth Anne Mckenna 1876, her maiden name is "Mckenna", I have copy of her Birth cert and a photograph of her that says she died 05 March 1945, Paddington, as you know some times ages are not always correct when informant gives information to registers at time of someone passing away. I'm about to order both Death Cert & Wedding Cert based on information I have been given so again I would like to say thank you for your help and will let you know how I get on.
Regards nemesis.

Hi Rutlandbelle, again I'd like to thank you for your help with my trying to find out about Elizabeth Anne Mckenna 1876, Mckenna is her Maiden name she is the sister of my grandfather Jerome Mary Mckenna 1884, I have her B/Cert as I said before and a photo of her stating she died 05 Mar 1945 Paddington, I know have received a couple more reply's that I will follow through and see what I can discover.
Thanks for your help regards nenesis.

name: Elizabeth Anne Mckenna
gender: Female
birth date: 21 Mar 1876
birthplace: Dungarvan, Kilkenny, Ireland
father's name: Henry Mckenna
mother's name: Ellen Jane Mckenna Sullivan
indexing project (batch) number: C01312-1
system origin: Ireland-EASy
source film number: 255955

isn't 1916 a little late for her to have married ?

I don't see her in the 1901 or 1911 Irish census as McKenna

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/


hehe RutlandBelle, just saw your message :-)


the parents' marriage

Groom's Name: Henry Mckenna
Bride's Name: Ellen Jane Sullivan
Marriage Date: 07 Jan 1869
Marriage Place: Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Ireland
Groom's Father's Name: James Mckenna
Bride's Father's Name: John Sullivan
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M70241-3
System Origin: Ireland-EASy
Source Film Number: 101540
Reference Number: p527 rn163


there are a lot of other children listed too

Joseph Thomas 1878
John Michael 1877
Henry Sullivan 1872
Mary Josephine 1871
Ellen Jane 1874
Bernard John 1873
James Francis 1869

ah was just going to say that, suddenly realised whilst in the bath that if the death is known then surely her name is known. Is McKenna her married name ?? or single name ???

if you know when and where she died you know her husband's surname ? i.e. her married surname when she died

........ if this is her death then she didn't marry or she used her birth name after her marriage ?

Name: Elizabeth Mckenna
Birth Date: abt 1879
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1945
Age at Death: 66
Registration district: Paddington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 28

that death record shows no middle initial and the age is slightly different from what you said

what is it that makes you think that is the death of your Elizabeth McKenna ?

I'm afraid this doesn't make sense to me !


you know the other member who has her in their tree here ?

Elizabeth McKenna 1876 Kilkenny, Ireland

a death certificate may not give you her spouse's name. It just depends who was the informant.

Personally I would think you would get more info from a marriage certificate