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Hi, this is the first time ive posted so please be patient with me haha. im really struggling to find my grandmothers grandparents.

My grandmothers name is Patricia Dee (1935) (Liverpool).

Her mother was called Helen Smith (1910) (married in c1928 to William Dee (1909)) and Helen had brothers Thomas Smith (c1914), Robert Smith (c1915) and sister Veronica Smith (c1912) (all from Liverpool).

Can anybody point me in the right direction to look? I have no names or leads for her grandparents, other than they died young-ish (which is why my grandmother couldnt recall any info on them).

Thanks for any help ! Kirstie

Ann, you really need to edit yourposts so they are readable. I usually find pasting into notepad or word helps first :-)

Secondly, checking up of the facts would show you need to be looking for an ELLEN SMITH not a Helen Smith!

The marriage....

Marriages Dec 1929 (>99%)
----------------------------------------
Dee William H Smith Liverpool 8b 416
SMITH Ellen M Dee Liverpool 8b 416
~~~~

The most probable birth for Ellen...

Births Jun 1911 > Smith Ellen M W.Derby 8b 314
~~~~

Most possible entry for William on the 1911 census.

1911 RG14PN22684 RG78PN1328 RD455 SD11 ED31 SN441
Reg. District: West Derby Sub District: Wavertree
Address: 75 Vulcan St Garston Liverpool County: Lancashire
__________________________
DEE, John Head Married M 30 1881 Labourer Ireland Tipperary
DEE, Bridget Wife Married 5 years F 29 1882 Dublin
DEE, Thomas Son Single M 3 1908 Lancs Garston
>>>DEE, William Son Single M 2 1909 Lancs Garston
DEE, Margaret Daughter Single F 4 (MOS 4) 1907 Lancs Garston
LOUGHMAN, John Boarder Widower M 60 1851 Labourer Dublin
~~~~

I wouldmost def recommend getting William & Ellen'smarriage cert and see whom their father's are, this will enable you to go back a step.


Tracey x

Especially with a name like Smith, you're going to need to purchase some certs.
Your gran's marr to Wm Dee is one you'll need, I think. .

Marriages Dec 1929 (>99%)
Dee William H Smith Liverpool 8b 416
SMITH Ellen M Dee Liverpool 8b 416

This will name the couple's dads, and help identify them on the 1911 census.

Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/ for the local index (instead of FreeBMD for the GRO index) gets:

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1929
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
DEE William H SMITH Ellen M Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_LP/394/235
[So either a rego office marr, or an RC marr that the registrar had to attend]


There is an Ellen M Smith rego'ed in W Derby:

Births Jun 1911 (>99%)
Smith Ellen M W.Derby 8b 314


but this is incompatible with the most likely Veronica:

Births Sep 1911 (>99%)
Smith Veronica McArdle W. Derby 8b 793

Deaths Dec 1921 (>99%)
Smith Veronica 10 W.Derby 8b 464

If that should be your Veronica, then Helen's mid-name could well be McArdle.
If the W Derby 1911 census that Ann posted is your g gran, then it looks like you'll have to look at purchasing censuses and certs from the GROS site:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

Technically, most folk don't buy certified extracts of the registers from them, but uncertified images of the registers themselves, which is much cheaper.
Scottish registrations are more informative than English ones, and cost abt 1 GBP per image, as do their census images, although Ancestry has partial transcriptions of the latter online.

One should be aware that Jane and Jean are interchangeable in Scotland, and Helen & Ellen are pretty interchangeable in Scotland and much of the north of England.

This looks like Ellen's death

Name: Ellen Mary Dee
Birth Date: 18 May 1911
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1977
Age at Death: 66
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Merseyside
Volume: 36
Page: 0322

and William's

Name: William Henry Dee
Birth Date: 29 Mar 1909
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1979
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Merseyside
Volume: 36
Page: 0916

if that is her death above she was born after the census was taken so the birth for Ellen M Smith jun 1911 is more than likely her birth

For accuracy, you must obtain the 1929 marriage cert.

The bride's father's details will be recorded - vital info when trying to research any name, but even more so with the name Smith.

Have you used freebmd to try to find the births of Ellen's siblings?

After 1911, the MMN is on the index, so you should be able to link them

1911 census - household transcription

Text deleted, as already posted - above.

One child of the four born in the marriage has died......probably this one

Deaths Mar 1909 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DEE Bridget 3 Liverpool 8b 35

________________________________________________________

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1906
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
DEE John BURTON Bridget West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_WD/244/114

Births Dec 1915 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DEE Ellen M Burton W.Derby 8b 1107

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1919 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dee John J Burton W. Derby 8b 915

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1922 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dee David Burton W.Derby 8b 1320

**Ann**

Could you please edit your posts....they really are incomprehensible as they appear now. Thank you

You must be using IE9...................

Flick.....................have been having trouble with this site, the pasting issue only arose at last post..............dont know what the problem is?

WT................Thought it was HELEN in the post and she was looking for her parents............tired eyes! Will have to walk the plank!

Helen was the name Kirsty gave, but that was not her name when the marriage was found.

I suppose when names are passed down Helen/Ellen sound the same...well they do if you come from Essex :-D

jax

Think the marriage was posted after my post...........I then had to log off because of problems with site...........so not seeing things then ;-)

Thank you Jax

Hiya guys, thanks for all your help, your all stars!

Have to make some corrections to my post; Helen is Ellen (known as 'Nell' so no one was entirely sure which was her real name), born at the end of may 1911. And almost definately the marriage was in W.derby in 1929. All the family are catholic (if thats relevant?)
...(ive been interrogating every member of my family to try and piece this all together)

Both the Dee family and Smith family will go back to ireland (apparently)

Briget ? (1882) and John Dee (1881) (born in Ireland) are the name of William Dee's parents.

I have tried freebmd and nothing and no exact matches. so is scotlandspeople the next thing i should do to obtain the marriage certificate? Is there anything else i can try?

Im also having no luck trying to locate Ellen Smiths siblings, Thomas, Robert and Veronica. But know Veronica was old enough for my nan (born 1935) to remember her as 'Ronnie'.

p.s. thanks to cynthia for letting me know there were replies, im not great with navigating my way the site! :-S

There is no Veronica Smith that would really match your family.for the year of birth you have mentioned

If that is her death which by the sounds of it, it is then that is her birth registered in jun 1911 in which case the only Veronica mentioned could not be her sister as she was registered in sept qtr 1911.

There are quite a few born after 1911 but with out knowing what the mothers maiden name was it is hard to say which one could be her

Maybe her name was not Veronica but she chose to be called that?

You really need to get the marriage cert for fathers name or birth cert to find out her parents names

jax

I cant guarentee any of the dates for the sibling to be completely accurate unfortunately so I agree thats probably the best way to end this confusion. Could you recommend a good site to get copies of marriage/birth certificates?

Thanks, Kirst

Always order from Gro

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

certs will cost £9.25 each

jax

Hello everyone its me again.

My great-grandparents marriage certificate finally arrived in the post which gave me the brides fathers name 'Thomas Smith' can somebody point me in the right direction to find now of how to obtain his wifes name? and then there children?

Im trying to get this tree finished for my nan for a christmas present...panic time!! haha thanks for your help

Hi Kirsty, just to make sure we're on the right track, would that be the 1929 marriage of Ellen Mary Smith to William Harold Dee, so Ellen's father is Thomas? What was his occupation?

What were the full names of the couple on the marriage cert?

How old did they say they were?

What was the occupation of the bride's father?

Hi again, yes the following info was on the marriage certificate:

William Henry Dee (20)
Ellen May Smith (18)

Grooms father; John Dee - carpenter/journeyman? joinerman??
Brides father; Thomas Smith - seasman merchant service