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Appreciate your time Dea.
I wonder if he too emigrated ? ( I can't see a death)

I keep going over what my contact said... that he was put in an ophanage after his father died. (though why Devon I can't imagine !)

If Elizabeth was his mother then surely that wouldn't apply , especially as she had other children.
Also in 1901 Elizabeth is down as "married" not widowed.

Well, I have been looking for him for the best part of the day but I can't find him - sorry :-(

Dea x

Can anyone find Herbert in 1911 please ?

Yes William Wignall Jnr's mother was Mary Jane Sowerbutts who is Elizabeth's sister.



I can't understand how William Snr can be Milton Craven's grandfather.

Very thankful for all this info by the way.
I had heard that one of the Sowerbutts went to America but didn't know which one.


The child that died would have been the first Beatrice .

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1888
SOWERBUTTS Beatrice Annie - St Peters Preston - SOWERBUTTS

Death 1889
SOWERBUTTS Beatrice Annie - 0 - St Peters Preston
--------------------------

So still no connection to Herbert Craven... unless he was Joseph Francis' son from before he married Elizabeth maybe ?

Boston Passenger and Crew Lists, 1820-1943

Name: Elizabeth Craven
Arrival Date: 24 Sep 1902
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Gender: Female
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Saxonia
Port of Arrival: Boston, Massachusetts
Friend's Name: John Sowerbutts (Uncle living at 29 Salisbury Street, New Bedford)
Last Residence: Preston

Ah, the Sowerbutts connection


Marriages Mar 1891 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brandwood Margaret Preston 8e 908
Dilworth William Preston 8e 908
>>>>>Sowerbutts Mary Jane Preston 8e 908
>>>>>Wignall William Preston 8e 908




1891

WIGNALL, William Head Married M 21 1870 Cotton Loomer
Preston
Lancashire VIEW
WIGNALL, Mary Jane Wife Married F 25 1866 Weaver Cotton
Preston
Lancashire VIEW
SOWERBUTTS, Lettice Lodger Single F 31 1860 Weaver Cotton
Preston
Lancashire VIEW
SOWERBUTTS, Ann Lodger Single F 30 1861 Cotton Rover
Preston
Lancashire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
3430 Folio:
101 Page:
42 Registration District:
Preston

Civil Parish:
Preston Municipal Borough:
Preston Address:
96, Bootle Street, Preston County:
Lancashire

Elizabeth, Joseph & son Joseph Craven are showing on 1920 US census in Providence, Rhode Island but the original isn't available on familysearch - available from Ancestry. Don't know if it will give any more details though.

Boston Passenger and Crew Lists, 1820-1943

Name: Milton Craven
Arrival Date: 9 May 1912
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1903
Gender: Male
Ethnic Background: English
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Franconia
Port of Arrival: Boston, Massachusetts
Friend's Name: Joseph Pravda
Last Residence: England
Birthplace: USA, England


(NB can see no reference to a Joseph Pravda on the original)


He seems to be travelling with a William Wignall aged 19, whose father is W Wignall of 92 Wilbraham Street, Preston. This is said to be Milton's grandfather.





1911

156 WIGNALL, William Head Married M 40 1871 Newsagent Preston Lancs VIEW
156 WIGNALL, Mary Jane Wife Married
20 years F 45 1866 Weaver Preston Lancs VIEW
156 WIGNALL, William Henry Son Single M 18 1893 Dyer Preston Lancs VIEW
156 WIGNALL, Thomas Son Single M 16 1895 Weaver Preston Lancs VIEW
156 WIGNALL, Vincent Son M 14 1897 Butcher Frozer Preston Lancs VIEW
156 WIGNALL, James Son M 11 1900 School Preston Lancs VIEW
156 WIGNALL, Wilfred Son M 9 1902 School Preston Lancs VIEW
156 WIGNALL, Mary Jane Daughter F 6 1905 School Preston Lancs VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
25247 Reference:
RG14PN25247 RG78PN1446 RD476 SD2 ED4 SN156

Registration District:
Preston Sub District:
East Preston Enumeration District:
4 Parish:
Preston

Address:
92 Wilbraham Street Preston Lancashire County:
Lancashire

7 children born, 6 still living
(which rules out one of the Wignall children marrying a Mr Craven)?

??

1911 census shows Elizabeth as having had 3 children, and two are still living, but only Joseph Henry and Beatrice mentioned above as her children.

Lancsbmd has mmn of Ainsworth for that 1891 birth so probably not the right one

Must admit my first thought was that his birthplace could be Preston in Devon .


Thanks Reggie, I didn't have 1911.
Milton is a new one on me, I'll have to research that one.
If Milton is her child it looks like Elizabeth emigrated to USA

Meanwhile I wonder if you can find Herbert in 1911 ?


Ahh... just found a note that Elizabeth was living at 32 Emily St. Blackburn in 1891.

I wonder ...


Births Dec 1891
Sowerbutts Herbert - Blackburn 8e 393

I'm sure you have this Mike*, but it may help anyone trying to fathom this out for you


1911 census - household transcription
Person: CRAVEN, Elizabeth
Address: 96 Bootle Street Preston Lancashire


SOWERBUTTS, Ann Head Single F 50 1861 Newsagent And Preston Lancashire VIEW
CRAVEN, Elizabeth Visitor Married
15 years F 37 1874 Cotton Weaver Preston Lancashire VIEW
CRAVEN, Joseph Visitor M 13 1898 Scholar Preston Lancashire VIEW
CRAVEN, Milton Visitor M 8 1903 Scholar Boston United States America VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
25247 Reference:

If they were unclear as to his age in 1901 then how reliable is his place of birth

Elizabeth born 1873. married Joseph Francis Craven in 1896

My records show her 2 children as Joseph Henry 1897 and Beatrice 1899.
All born Preston.

My contact had his DOB as 1893 and states Herbert was in an Orphanage in Devon after the death of his father.
Why Devon I can't imagine.
I can't verify any of it.

Thanks for that.

I can find no birth for him either in freebmd or the Lancashire sites.
Looked at Craven, Sowerbutts and Sourbutts

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1896
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CRAVEN Joseph Francis SOWERBUTTS Elizabeth Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston PRESTON/106/60

Have you asked your contact to provide further details?

No birth on freebmd or lancsbmd for the name/age

How old was Elizabeth when she married? Was she old enough to have had a child six years earlier?

Image originally says NK for age but crossed out

I have had an email from someone who thinks this person is part of my ancestry.

1901 census
Herbert Craven -10 - Preston Lancs - Devon Tormoham With Torquay Pupil


I have no record of him and don't think he is the son of my relative Elizabeth Sowerbutts as claimed, as she only married Francis Craven in 1896 in Preston.

However, I would like to discover who he belongs to.