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Many thanks brummiejan. I think that I wll print this out so I can compare and colate as I'm not good at doing it on screen. Must try to set up the printer correctly. I would really like to sort out the Coulthard mystery. Margaret

Just to say, Thomas and Margaret above live very near to a 'Milbourne Crescent', and in 1871 I think Margaret is living with her family in Milburn Street.

Still can't quite sort out if 'Milbourne' ans 'Milburn' are the same place.
I think this name is going to haunt me forever!!

jan :-D

1871 England Census
Name: Margaret Stockdale
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Stockdale
Mother's name: Mary Stockdale
Gender: Female
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England
Civil parish: St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Carlisle
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: St Mary

William Stockdale 45
Mary Stockdale 42
Margaret Stockdale 16
Joseph Stockdale 14
Thomas Stockdale 8

I am guessing this is the couple who witnessed the marriage - doesn't seem to be a family link on the face of it:


1881 England Census

Name: Thomas Roberts
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret Roberts
Gender: Male
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Caldewgate
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England

Street Address: 3 Exeter Place
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Painter

Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: St Mary

Thomas Roberts 26
Margaret Roberts 26
Thomas Stockdale 18 Relation: Boarder


Marriages Sep 1877 (>99%)
Branigan Margaret Carlisle 10b 605
Rafferty Patrick Carlisle 10b 605
ROBERTS Thomas Carlisle 10b 605
Stockdale Margaret Carlisle 10b 605

Wow! You have been busy.You have all given me a lot to think about.
MarieCeleste, the witnesses were Thomas Roberts and Margaret Stockdale. The marriage was at the "Register" office and was before Robt Johunston(?) the registrar and his deputy but I'm unsure of the name.
I'm now at the stage where the people who remembered Mgt C are all dead and of course can no longer cross check. I will go through all the above and decide what to do next.
You have all been so kind. Margaret

On reflection maybe I was being a bit imaginative last night! However, I am forming a theory to work on that Margaret might just have been Ann's daughter, which might explain no father on the scene.

I feel reasonably confident that this is the Ann from 1881 and 1871 - I can't see her 1861 either.

1851 England Census

Name: Ann Coulthard (married, weaver)
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Pauper
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Caldewgate
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Cumberland

Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 6a

I think that Armathwaite is south east of Carlisle although little more than a hamlet.

Could this be the Ann that Jan posted in 1881 Again listed as a widow. I can't see her in 1861

1871

Name: Ann Coulthard
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England
Civil parish: Cummersdale
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: Dalston
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 65
Piece: 5225
Folio: 24
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Hannah Altringham 30
William Altringham 12
James Altringham 6
Ann Coulthard 46

1861 could this be the 2 children from births above?
RG number: RG09
Piece: 3942
Folio: 57
Page: 40
Reg. District: Cockermouth
Sub District: 4 Maryport
Parish: Crosscanonby
Enum. District: 12
Ecclesiastical District: Carlisle
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Catherine Street, Crosscanonby, Maryport
County: Cumberland
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
COULTHAM, Joseph Head Married M 48 1813 Ship Carpenter
..., Cumberland
COULTHAM, Margaret Wife F 48 1813
Maryport, Cumberland
COULTHAM, Martha Daughter Unmarried F 13 1848 Scholar
Maryport, Cumberland
COULTHAM, Edward Son Unmarried M 10 1851 Scholar
Maryport, Cumberland
COULTHAM, Joseph Son Unmarried M 11 1850 Scholar
Maryport, Cumberland
COULTHAM, Robert Son Unmarried M 0 (5M) 1861 Infant
Maryport, Cumberland
COULTHAM, Margaret Daughter Unmarried F 7 1854 Scholar
Maryport, Cumberland

and
i think this is head of house and family below live next door?

RG number: RG09
Piece: 3942
Folio: 7
Page: 8
Reg. District: Cockermouth
Sub District: 4 Maryport
Parish: Crosscanonby
Enum. District: 11
Ecclesiastical District: Carlisle
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Nelson Street, Crosscanonby, Maryport
County: Cumberland
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
JACKSON, Ann Syemond Head Widow F 49 1812 Washerwoman
Newcastle, Northumberland
JACKSON, Ann Mother In Law Widow F 80 1781 Formerly Mariners Wife
Broughton, Cumberland

RG number: RG09
Piece: 3942
Folio: 7
Page: 8
Reg. District: Cockermouth
Sub District: 4 Maryport
Parish: Crosscanonby
Enum. District: 11
Ecclesiastical District: Carlisle
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Nelson Street, Crosscanonby, Maryport
County: Cumberland
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
HESKETT, Jane Daughter Unmarried F 24 1837 Domestic
Maryport, Cumberland
HESKETT, Joseph Son Unmarried M 20 1841 Ship Carpenter
Maryport, Cumberland
COULTHARD, Margaret Granddaughter F 7 1854 Scholar
Maryport, Cumberland

Armathwaite given as place of birth ,i think this is Cockermouth reg. district so 2 possible birth indexes
Births Sep 1853
Coulthard Margaret Cockermouth 10b 416


Births Mar 1854
Coulthard Margaret Cockermouth 10b 418

I wonder if this relates to Milbourne St?

EDIT it does say Milbourne on the original I think. Have a feeling about this. The same Ann I think is a pauper living in a workhouse 1851, but always working in linen industry.

1881 England Census

Name: Ann Coulthard
Age: 59
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Caldewgate
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England

Street Address: Milburn St St Josephs Home Little Sisters of The
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)

Occupation: Cotton Reeler

Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 11

You are correct - furthermore their daughter Margaret is with them! Strike them out then.
Jan

marriage for couple in 1861 above. If these were her parents then she surely would have put George down as her father

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1850 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****Armstrong Ann - Carlisle 25 58
Barnfather Mary Carlisle 25 58
Chisholme John Carlisle 25 58
*****Coulthard George - Carlisle 25 58
Johnson William Lewis Carlisle 25 58
Shields Robert Carlisle 25 58
Todd Catharine Carlisle 25 58
Wilson Sarah Carlisle 25 58

Milbourne St is in Caldewgate, which supports the connection with the family found above:

1881 England Census about George Coulthard
Name: George Coulthard
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Coulthard
Gender: Male
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Caldewgate
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England

Street Address: Duke Street 3 Storys Court
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Hand Loom Weaver (Und)

Registration district: Carlisle
Sub-registration district: St Mary

George Coulthard 54
Ann Coulthard 54
Margaret Coulthard 26
James Coulthard 17
Mary Elizabeth Coulthard 14

Hello Margaret, who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate? They may give us a clue.

Maybe??

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
COULTHARD George Head M M 32 Cotton Weaver Cumberland - Carlisle
COULTHARD Ann Wife M F 33 Cotton Weavers Wife Cumberland - Carlisle
COULTHARD Margt Dau U F 6 Scholar Cumberland - Carlisle
COULTHARD George Son U M 4 Cumberland - Carlisle
COULTHARD Thos Son U M 1 Cumberland - Carlisle
ARMSTRONG Thos Lodger U M 20 Cotton Spinner Cumberland - Carlisle

Many thanks brummiejan. 1881 census matches what I,ve found. I've tried births & baptisms but cant find her. The ref for the marriage cert matches. Knowing that people move & records are not always accurate this offers another idea. Your help is appreciated

Doesn't help at all, but this Margaret is a cotton winder, which might match for occupation on marriage cert - lucky you having that at least!

1871 England Census

Name: Margaret Coultard
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Carlisle, Cumberland, England
Civil parish: Great Bolton
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
Town: Bolton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Bolton Western

Elisabeth Collin 70
Nancy Collin 48
Margaret Coultard 18

Is this them?


1881 England Census about Margaret Roper
Name: Margaret Roper
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William Roper
Gender: Female
Where born: Armathwaite, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Shildon
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Street Address: 9 Chapel St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Auckland
Sub-registration district: Bishop Auckland
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4919
Folio: 56
Page Number: 60
Household Members:
Name Age
William Roper 28
Margaret Roper 27
Fredrick Roper 4
Mary Emma Roper 2
Elizabeth Ann Roper

Where is this Margaret?

EDIT must be this one!

Name: Margaret Coulthard
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1873
Registration district: Carlisle
Inferred County: Cumberland
Volume Number: 10b
Page Number: 829

Jan

The marriage cert showsthat William Roper married Mgt on 24/12/1873. He is 21, she is 20.Both live in MilbourneSt but no number is given.She is a power loom weaver but no name or occupation for her father. I know that therefore she could be illegitimate. Someone said try the info from 1871census but I couldn't sort out the entry on Margaret. Other suggestions were to find the street entry , which I haven't managed& tofind ou where she worked , hoping to find the mill records. Please help as I'm out of my depth on this.Thank you for reading this, Margaret