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This maybe Alices birth,

ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
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Name: Alice Anna Minshull
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 15 Aug 1886
Baptism Place: England, Bunhill Row St Paul, Islington
Father:
Charles Romes Minshull
Mother:
Amelia Minshull
Register Type: Parish Registers.

and siblings.

me: Amelia Louisa Minshull
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 13 May 1883
Baptism Place: England, St Clement, City Road, Islington
Father:
Charles Momeo Minshull
Mother:
Amelia Catherine Minshull.

ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
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Name: Grace Jane Minshull
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Nov 1887
Baptism Place: England, Bunhill Row St Paul, Islington
Father:
Charles Romes Minshull
Mother:
Amelia Catharine Minshull
Register Type: Parish Registers.


ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
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Name: Albert Sydney Minshull
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 9 Nov 1890
Baptism Place: England, Clerkenwell St Paul, Islington
Father:
Charles Romeo Minshull
Mother:
Amelia Catherine Minshull
Register Type: Parish Registers.

following on family names with her own children./

just pucked out because of middle name.


Albert Walter Syrett
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 3 Jul 1874
Baptism Place: England, Hoxton St Saviour, Hackney
Father:
John Ballard Syrett.>>>>><
Mother:
Alice Syrett
Register Type: Parish Registers

Alice Sawyer, per the 1939 Register, later changed her surname to Perrin.

??
Marriages Sep 1956 (>99%)
PERRIN William SAWYER Stoke N'ton 5d 1555
SAWYER Alice H PERRIN Stoke N'ton 5d 1555


???? A third possible death of Alice ?? (If she's the same person with all three partners.)

Deaths Sep 1968 (>99%)
Perrin Alice H 84 Hackney 5b 405


With Alice at 4 Finmere House, Woodberry Down Estate.

William Perrin
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: William Perrin
Electoral Date: 1958
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Hackney North
County or Borough: Hackney, England

Same in 1959.


??? I expect the 1959 ER would have been compiled in 1958.

Deaths Dec 1958 (>99%)
PERRIN William 70 Hackney 5c 681



Alice is still at 4 Finmere House , alone, in 1962:

Alice Perrin
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Alice Perrin
Electoral Date: 1962
Street Address: 4 Allerdale [ 4 Finmere House on image ]
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Hackney North
County or Borough: Hackney, England
Reference Number: LCC/PER/B/2831

Also in 1960 and 1963.

Don't know if this is the same couple ??

1931-34, Arthur C Syrett with Alice (no middle name) Syrett at 56 Northampton Street, Finsbury.
1935 - 38, he's at the same address, with Alice, and also Charles Arthur Syrett.
1939, the three of them are at 50 Nigel Buildings, Portpool Lane, Holborn.


Birth of Charles Arthur ???

Births Sep 1913 (>99%)
Syrett Charles A Ballard Holborn 1b 1109

I don't see any Syrett/Ballard marriage - is mmn Ballard a coincidence?


Charles Arthur Syrett
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Charles Arthur Syrett
Death Age: 92
Birth Date: 24 Jul 1913
Registration Date: Oct 2005
Registration District: Hastings and Rother
Inferred County: East Sussex
Register Number: A85A
District and Subdistrict: 456/1A
Entry Number: 118
.

ADDED:

The birth on GRO shows him as illegitimate, and doesn't mention the name Ballard, allthough Ballard is shown as mmn in the image of the Index page on FreeBMD:

SYRETT, CHARLES ARTHUR -
GRO Reference: 1913 S Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 1109

Record Baptism.
Charles George Sawyer
20 Sep 1903 Hoxton St Saviour Hackney.

John and Alice Sawyer,,,,,,a cabnet maker..




ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
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Name: Arthur John Syrett
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Aug ***1905****-----born July 18.
Baptism Place: England, Bethnal Green St John, Tower Hamlets
Father:
Arthur Charles Syrett
Mother:
Alice Hannah Syrett
Register Type: Parish Registers.

Sponsor ---Amelia Minshull..


with the above two baptisms,,,,,,2 years apart,,,,,,the 1903 lists Alice and John,Sawyer,,,,,,,also accounting 18 months for 2 pregencies...something doesnt quite add up.


1905 lists Alice and Arthur,,,,,,,,,Syrett,

Arthur John's birth is on page one, as is his school admission, by which time Alice was living with Sawyer, and his forename (NOT his surname) appears on the record

ErikaH -
yes, but which death cert??

If both Alices are the same woman, as seems to be the case, going by the children, she's listed with both men in 1939, with different DOBs. Takes "not averse to lying" to new heights!

I had wondered if perhaps Arthur and John were one and the same (and also lying about DOB) - but that would only work if he had two addresses, which can't be the case.

Odd?


ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
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Name: Arthur John Syrett
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Aug ***1905****-----born July 18.
Baptism Place: England, Bethnal Green St John, Tower Hamlets
Father:
Arthur Charles Syrett
Mother:
Alice Hannah Syrett
Register Type: Parish Registers.

Sponsor ---Amelia Minshull.

did Alice flit between John Sawyer and Arthur Syrett.?--possibly John Sawyer had been married to an Alice in 1903 re-above baptism..

As has already been illustrated, both parties were not averse to lying

The name of the informant on the death cert may prove enlightening.

To recap:

Alice Hannah Minshull born July-Sept 1886.

The two deaths again for reference:

Matching the Alice in 1939 with Arthur Syrett:

Deaths Sep 1983
SYRETT ALICE 23AU1889 ISLINGTON 13 1380


Matching the Alice in 1911 and 1939 with John Sawyer:


Deaths Dec 1970
SAWYER Alice Hannah 30No1882 Dartford 5f 972


Neither fits with an 1886 birth.
The day and month of birth for the Syrett death does fit with the Minshull birth.

Marriage of the daughter Grace:

Grace Sawyer
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Name: Grace Sawyer
Marriage Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1907
Marriage Date: 7 May 1927
Marriage Place: St Mark, Shoreditch, Hackney, England
Father:
John Syrett , packer
Spouse:
James George Carey


In the margin there's a note to say "for "Grace Sawyer" read "Grace Jane Syrett otherwise Sawyer".
Signed by Rev Leonard Joyce and Grace Jane Carey , Feb 7th 1929

Marriages Jun 1927 (>99%)
CAREY James G Syrett Shoreditch 1c 177
CAREY James G Sawyer Shoreditch 1c 177

ViewLondon, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
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Name: Maud Catharine Sawyer
Baptism Age: 0
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 6 Aug 1910
Baptism Date: 4 Sep 1910
Baptism Place: England, St John, Hoxton, Hackney
Father:
John Sawyer
Mother:
Alice Sawyer.

Carpet machine maker and living at 33 New North Road.

Record Baptism.
Charles George Sawyer
20 Sep 1903 Hoxton St Saviour Hackney.

John and Alice Sawyer,,,,,,a cabnet maker..

On the 1939 Register, the years of birth are often out by a year or two - human error by either the person listed, or the person filling in the forms.
Day and month are more often correct.

Do you have Alice Minshull's birth cert, for her exact DOB?

The DOB on this death matches the DOB on the 1939 Register:

Deaths Sep 1983
SYRETT ALICE 23AU1889 ISLINGTON 13 1380

So either -
1) Alice went back to Arthur after a time with John Sawyer, and either lied or was mistaken about her year of birth
or
2) this is a different Alice.

If it matters, there's no middle name on the death record.


EDIT:


But, as already shown, John Sawyer with wife Alice (1865) and children Charles, Mary, and Rose, are at 51 Retford Road in 1939 - so two different Alices.

i think that is arthur in 1939 with alice as the ages match the other 1939 reg says alice is born 1865

A big thanks to all of you on all the information on Arthur Charles Ballard Syrett it is all much appreciated. I am wondering now did Arthur re-marry? From the information in 1939 he was living at the same address on his death certificate at 35 Chadworth House Lever Street in 1956 if this the correct Arthur?

Hi Erika,
Thank you very much for all your information, much appreciated. The 1939 information was very useful especially the Arthur you found at Lever street. I do have the death certificate for this Arthur in 1956. The informant on the death certificate is a Charles Syrett, son from Croydon. I wonder if he did get married again after he left the first Alice or just said he was married. I wonder if his other two children Albert and Grace were baptised and what school they went to. I have just checked Arthur Charles Ballard Syrett's birth certificate and he was born on the 13th September 1884. Where was this 1939 information from because the first Alice was born in 1886.

1901 - at the address on his Army docs

11, Woodville Grove, Islington, London & Middlesex, England

Charles Syrett Head Married Male 44 1857 Fancy Box Designer Walworth, Surrey, England
Eliza Syrett Wife Married Female 36 1865 - Southwark, Surrey, England
Arthur Syrett Son - Male 16 1885 Porter Hoxton, Middlesex, England
Ada Syrett Daughter - Female 14 1887 Errand Girl Hoxton, Middlesex, England

Arthur was discharged from the Army in March 1901, for lying about his age when he enlisted

Name: Arthur John Syrett
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Aug 1905
Baptism Place: England, Bethnal Green St John, Tower Hamlets
Father: Arthur Charles Syrett
Mother: Alice Hannah Syrett

Name: Arthur Syrett
Gender: Male
Age: 5
Birth Date: 18 Jul 1904
Admission Date: 23 Aug 1909
School: Gopsall Street School
Father: John*************************************************
Notes: Gopsall Street School opened in 1897. Renamed The Whitmore School in 1931

Deaths Sep 1980 (>99%)
SYRETT ARTHUR JOHN 18JY1905 THURROCK 9 2824

1939

51 Retford Street, Shoreditch, Hackney, Shoreditch, London, England
John Sawyer 06 Jul 1875 Male Packer (Carpet Sweepers) Married 201 1
Alice Perrin (Sawyer) 23 Jun 1865 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 201 2
Charles (Ed?) Sawyer 25 Dec 1914 Male Carpenter Married 201 3
Mary Sawyer 26 Jun 1919 Female Capsule Colourer Single 201 4
Rose Prowse (Sawyer) 22 Apr 1922 Female Showcard Embosser Single 201 6

TWO closed records


Marriages Mar 1943 (>99%)
Prowse Douglas V Sawyer Hendon 3a 965
Sawyer Rose Prowse Hendon 3a 965

1939

35 Chardworth Buildings Lever Street, Barbican, City Of London, Finsbury, London, England
Arthur Syrett 13 Sep 1884 Male Electricians Mate Married 35 1
Alice Syrett 23 Aug 1889 Female Office Cleaner Married 35 2