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Message attached Mike Hello everyone, could you give me the benefit of your experience? I am in the position of trying to confirm the line back from my Grandmother. Before I do may I first apologise for anyone who tried to help me with Elizabeth Rumbold. I did not know the ropes and was replying by e-mailing direct instead of posting by add reply.I am so sorry, just not used to the site. As you can see, by typing this out first and then pasting, your excellent advice for Newbies has struck home!! Thank you all. Back to Grandma, Gertrude Metcalfe(with an E) I have her Birth, Marriage and death Certs.I have her at 8yrs on 1891 census at Acton and at18 on the 1901 census at Edmonton. Her father is not on either census. Trouble is on her birth cert it gives her father as Benjamin Metcalf ( no E)Her mother is Sarah Metcalf formerly Gregory Date 23/3/1883 Kensington Middx Her mothers address 94 Bramley road. Her marriage cert Gives her as Gertrude Metcalfe( with E)and names her father as Benjamin Metcalfe labourer. Marriage on 25/12/1903 Edmonton. Middx I have searched and searched for the marriage of Sarah Gregory to Benjamin Metcalfe with no luck. I have already found a Metcalfe family that looks right but the Benjamin is already married to Annie. Gertrude had a younger sister Ada and buying her birth cert the space for father is crossed through. Illegitimate? I am now thinking perhaps my grandmother was also illegitimate and I will never find the marriage. Can anyone else suggest where I could look? I have tried Free BMD Ancestry.uk Family Search.1837Online.

Have you looked for Sarah Gregory on censuses before her marriage? nell

Thanks Helen, did not find her until she called herself Metcalfe. She was then staying with parents and listed as visitor. Mike

Michael according to the 1891 census Sarah Metcalfe is a widower. Benjamin couldn't have died much before the census because she has a 2month old daughter (unless the daughter wasn't Benjamin's). Georgina.

Georgina, Many thanks, yes you have found her at Acton prior to second marriage. She has Gertrude and sister Ada who on the birth cert has the fathers space crossed through.I suppose thinking about it again, Benjamin could have died while Sarah was carrying Ada. I'll look at the deaths again. Thanks Mike

Back in an hour Mike

Michael I have check the complete marriage records for 1878-1881 and there was no Benjamin Metcalf/Metcalfe who married in them years. Maybe Sarah had the children out of marriage but took his name? Georgina.

Thanks Georgina, I suppose I was really coming round to the same conclusion. I just wondered if I was missing something. The Benjamin Metcalfe I mentioned who was married to Annie had no children by that marriage.I have quite a good record of his family but could not find a link to Sarah. It is so easy to jump to a conclusion, even worse when it can't be resolved for certain. Many many thanks for your help, it really is appreciated Mike

Hi Michael Going from Experience .. Even if Benjamin had died when she was with child his name would not of been omitted from her Birth Cert...In the column where it says father it would of included his name and the fact that he was deceased.... If I were you.. I would check the parish records..the parish records would state if she was a single woman and saving face for the enumerator has said she was widowed.. Saying that it does not explain why she would be Metcalfe Mo In my research I came across a family for my Brother in Law who had 12 children all of them were registered in parish records as children of Richard Roberts and Sarah Bowen. Even on the Birth certs for the children they were down as man and Wife..I could'nt find any marriage for them.. I found them married in 1902..the first child was born in 1875...

Ozibird, thank you for your interest. Yes that's her on census, her youngest Ada is just 2 months old. Your comment about fathers permission is interesting. My Grandmothers birth cert definitely gives Benjamin Metcalf as father. Thanks again Mike

Mayoress, Thanks for the tip. I am sorry but Iam not aware how to get at parish records, do I have to go to Edmonton, her parish? Mike

Ozibird, HMM? I had accepted this entry as fact, everything fits, have you REAL doubts?It would have been before any children thanks for the interest, Mike

Ozibird, Just seen the 1871 reference, I will look at this one again.Mary from Scotland but her husband from Ovebury? On the later census they both give place of birth as Scotland. Thanks, Mike

If the mother was married, she could put her husband's name down as the child's father on the birth certificate, unless he actually went along and refused to have his name on it. If the child's father was not married to the mother and wanted his name to be on the certificate, he would have to go to the register office with her to have it put on. If Ada was born so long after Benjamin's death that he could not be her father, and the real father didn't go with the mother to register the birth, then that is why no father's name was put down (well, sometimes widows did give the name of a long-deceased husband anyway, but that is another story). Could be that Sarah and Benjamin were not actually married but Sarah pretended she was married to him when registering Gertrude's birth, or it could be that we just haven't found the marriage yet! Kate.

Time for this old boy to hit the sack Night all, back tomorrow Mike

Ozibird, you must have spent hours trying to help me, I really do appreciate your kindness. I have saved all the info and now will check it out. At the moment it looks like Gt Grandma was a naughty girl. again many many thanks. Mike

Hi Michael, I think Benjamin and Mary Gregory are actually her mother and step father. In 1861: Mary Metcalf abt 1829 Scotland Inmate Stepney Middlesex Sarah Metcalf abt 1857 Whitechapel, Middlesex, England Inmate Stepney Middlesex Mary is listed as widowed. I just need to find the marriage to confirm this. Interestingly, Sarah is married to Thomas Newton in 1901 but the only marriage I can find is a Sarah Marrs to a Thomas Newton. Portland Rose

Portland Rose, Many thanks for the help, You have found Sarahs second husband/ partner Thomas Newton. I have them 1901 census Edmonton...Thomas Newton Head aged 39 Sarah Newton aged 40 Wife Gertrude(My Grandmother) aged 18 daughter, Ada aged 10 Daughter LAURA NEWTON, NIECE aged 8 They are living just round the corner from where my grandmother finished up at Barbot St Edmonton. Gertrude, Ada are now entered as Newton surname. Gertrude Married 1903 as Gertrude Metcalfe. I am finding your trace of Mary Metcalfe as inmate really mysterious.Have I assumed too much from an earlier census? Perhaps I should be looking for a Sarah Metcalfe marriage to a Gregory instead of a Sarah Gregory marriage to Metcalfe? You have got me really guessing.But Gertrudes Birth cert gives father as Benjamin Metcalfe and mother as formerly Gregory. Thanks for the interest Mike