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Hi Helen Thanks for the info. I have checked Alfred out on Cityark where the docs can be viewed on line but no sign of him! Boo Hoo! Maybe I will have to treat myself to my own copy! Kind regards Evie

The records for Dartford on the IGI only go up to 1812. I have found where fiches of the later records can be purchased, you could order them then book in at your local records office and view them there. C8 Dartford Holy Trinity: Baptisms, Marriages & Burials 1813-39. 2 fiches £2.95 + postage Can be ordered online through North West Kent FHS at www(.)genfair(.)com/shop/pages/nwk/page05.html

Evie I wasn't very confident about Alfred either but I think William looks like a possibility. I'll have another look now the kids are watching Casualty.

Have checked out birth of Alfred Robert RUSSELL in Kent's Cityark but doesn't sound like the right one. Father, William, is listed there as a gentleman which doesn't really ring true with his later employment as a hatter! Also received death certificate for Alfred today and there was no mention of a middle name, Robert or any other. Would be grateful for any further ideas! Regards Evie

Hi Helen Had to log off this am due to kids!! Thanks so much for the info. The RUSSELLs you have found certainly seem possibles and I will look into them. Apparently Ridley is not far from Dartford. Still would love to know where William was hiding before 1871! Regards Evie

Evie, it's from the IGI on the LDS site. Still looking and found these who appear to be siblings for William, although my Road Atlas hasn't got Ridley in so I don't know if it's near Dartford. Can't be many Leonard Russells about at that time married to Marys though. You searched for: Russell, British Isles Father: Leonard Exact Spelling: Off Batch Number: C135102 International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 3 Select records to download - (50 maximum) 1. EDWARD RUSSEL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 06 NOV 1808 Ridley, Kent, England 2. THOMAS RUSSEL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 30 SEP 1810 Ridley, Kent, England 3. LEONARD RUSSEL - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 12 FEB 1807 Ridley, Kent, England

Hi Helen Those birth records seem possible but there is no mention anywhere of Afred having a middle name, not even on his burial records! Is this likely? Regards Evie

Thanks Helen That is a possibility. Can I ask where that info is from? Regards Evie

What about this one? ALFRED ROBERT RUSSELL Male -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: Christening: 24 JAN 1841 Saint Peter And Saint Paul, Milton By Gravesend, Kent, England Death: Burial: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parents: Father: WILLM. RUSSELL Family Mother: ELLEN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Messages: Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source Information: Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type: C135022 1730 - 1844 0992511, 0992512-13 Film 6906622 Maybe this is his Dad? Can't find any siblings in same Batch No WILLIAM RUSSELL Male -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: Christening: 08 MAR 1812 Dartford, Kent, England Death: Burial: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parents: Father: LEONARD RUSSELL Family Mother: MARY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Messages: Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source Information: Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type: C036541 1561 - 1718 0396472 Film 6906435 Film

Have tried that Zoe! I think William may have travelled around....why else did he end up in Birmingham with another woman! Why was Louisa living with her brother and not with her parents? Maybe her mother had died but where was William? Also find it strange that William ended up in the Workhouse although his son and grandchildren lived round the corner! I need to go back to London Metropolitan Archives and find out why William was in the workhouse etc!! This is so frustrating!! lol Regards Evie

Evie dont discount them having the same mother. Maybe the mother struggled to carry a child full term and only managed to have two children with lost pregnancies or still births inbetween. That could explain Alfred being boarded at a school to ease the pressure on his mother. 1837 online has the 1861 available as pay per view now and the advanced search is quite thorough and I'm sure include an occupation option - you could try searching for William on there to see if theres any more clues Zoe

Hi Zoe I think that may well be the father William RUSSELL who then appears to have gone and died in Dartford, Kent in 1888! I have also found what looks like him on 1871 census in Birmingham with a wife Sarah and 2 daughters Rebecca and Selina. However, Sarah cannot be Alfred's mother as she would have been too young (born approx 1836 London)! Also the 2 daughters' births were not registered in the name of RUSSELL, so either they were not married (ooer!) or the girls were step daughters who took his name! Have also found a sister of Alfred's called Louisa living with him in Bermondsey in 1861. She was born in Camberwell in 1854 and I have sent for her birth certifiacte which has not yet arrived! I have a feeling, due to large difference in years, that Alfred and Louisa may not have had the same mother. Cheers Zoe! Regards Evie

heres the same guy in 1871: Rebecca Russell 8 Redditch, Worcestershire, England Daughter Birmingham Warwickshire Sarah Russell 36 London, Middlesex, England Wife Birmingham Warwickshire Selina Russell 13 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England Daughter Birmingham Warwickshire William Russell 60 Dartford, Kent, England Head Birmingham Warwickshire I've checked the original and he's a hatter and his wife is definitely 36

Hi Zoe Thanks for that info but as you say it doesn't help at all! lol I think he must have known someone would be looking for him and deliberately laid a false trail! Regards Evie

going around about the houses to hopefully get back to square one - could this be his dad in 1881: Name:   William Russell 70 abt 1811 Inmate born:   Dartford, Kent, England Address:   'Workhouse Russell St Bermondsey' Civil parish:   Bermondsey County/Island:   London Condition as to marriage:   Widow Occupation:   Hatter Source information:   RG11/0563 Sub-registration district:   St Mary Magdalen ED, institution, or vessel:   Workhouse Continued Folio:   106 Page:   2

1871 birthplace is Hull Yorkshire!!! which doesnt help at all I know

I am desperately trying to trace the birth records of Alfred RUSSELL. The problem is that he seems to have changed his origins on every census! What I know so far is that he was born around 1836/1837. I cannot find him on the 1841 census so far. In 1851 he was at school in Balham Hill, Streatham aged 13 and gave his place of birth as Dartford, Kent. In 1861 he was living in Bermondsey aged 23 with his wife Mary Ann and son Alfred. His place of birth was given as London! In 1871 he was living in Bermondsey with his wife and family aged 33. He was a hatter but I cannot read his place of birth! In 1881 he was still in Bermondsey with his 6 children (his wife had died). He place of birth was then given as Peckham, Surrey. In 1891 he was living in Camberwell without the children aged 53 and his place of birth was given as Camberwell! Alfred RUSSELL died in 1901 in Mortlake. I have his marriage certificate, where his father is named as William RUSSELL, also a hatter and I also have Alfred's burial details. I have been to London and looked through the records in the Southwark Archives and at the London Metropolitan Archives but wasn't able to find anything! I am stuck! If anyone could help me with ideas of where else to look I would be extremely grateful. I realise that his birth may not have been registered prior to 1837 but am hoping this is not the case or I am at a dead end! I also seem unable to make any progress with Alfred's father, William RUSSELL. Who did he marry etc? I cannot find him on census before 1871! Thanks in anticiaption. Regards Evie

Please see below for details of Alfred RUSSELL and my search so far! Thanks to all who have tried but I still need help................!!