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Hello,

I'm trying to find where my great grandfather John Thomas Newman (b. 1867) is from, he was orphaned as a child and then moved to Ireland from England. I've been told by older family members that he had one brother but I don't know his name. I know this is vague but this is all I have to go on.

Thanks, Melanie.

NEWMAN John Basford.7b 143 1 1867
NEWMAN John Norwich.4b 135 1 1867
NEWMAN John Poplar.1c 627 2 1867
NEWMAN John Droxford.2c 111 3 1867
NEWMAN John Pontypridd.11a 278 3 1867
NEWMAN John Maldon.4a 233 3 1867
NEWMAN John Maldon.4a 223 4 1867
NEWMAN John Stoke Damerel.5b 315 4 1867
NEWMAN John Kensington.1a 137 4 1867
NEWMAN John Dudley.6c 125 4 1867
NEWMAN John Sturminster.5a 227 4 1867
NEWMAN John Brackley.3b 10 4 1867
NEWMAN John Ampthill.3b 363 4 1867

NEWMAN John Thomas Northampton.3b 93 1 1867
Newman John Thomas Chorlton 8c 611 1867 2


as you can see you have a lot of posibilities but only 2 john thomas

do you know when he went into the/ or where the orphanage is

If this is him in 1891:

Name: John Newman
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary A
Gender: Male
Where born: Cork, Ireland

Name: Mary A Newman
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: St James, London, England

Civil Parish: St Martin in The Fields
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin in the Fields
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Strand
Sub-registration district: St Martin in the Fields
ED, institution, or vessel: 7

Household Members: Name Age
Emma Davis 21 - general servant domestic
John Newman 24 - carman
Mary A Newman 21 - tailoress
Henry Parr 23 - tailor

-- it says Cork, for what that might be worth!

Now if you can spot their marriage, you'll be getting somewhere. ;)

Of course if you already know who he married, and if it was in England, the certificate should tell you his father's name!



Oh, never mind. He moved TO Ireland FROM England. Big fat duh to me.

*♥~♥~Mellie~♥~♥*: Thanks for the information. I don't think he went to an orphanage, I think he worked, but I'm not sure.

Kathryn B: Thanks for your help, no that isn't him, I should have mentioned that he married Frances Davis (b. c1870), I think he was in or near county Laois because that is where his daughter was born.

Also I think he married in Ireland most likely.

Trying to redeem myself ... in 1881:

Name: John Newman
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Scholar
Gender: Male
Where born: Folkestone
Civil Parish: Ratcliffe
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: "Barnados Home"18 To 26 Stepney Causeway
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Ratcliff
ED, institution, or vessel: Home for Working and Destitute Lads

He's a possibility!

Possible, but I think he moved to Ireland right after his parents died, but as I've said my information is thin so who knows perhaps.

In 1871 ... there's an age discrepancy to be that one in 1881, but he's got a father Thomas! -- who was older, and thus likely to die?

Name: John Newman
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Ann P
Gender: Male
Where born: Dover, Kent, England
Civil Parish: St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Dover
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Dover
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household schedule number: 38

Household Members: Name Age
Ann P Newman 32
Elizabeth Newman 18
Frederick Newman 4
John Newman 8
Thomas Newman 52
Harriet S Thunder 25

who would be this one:

Name: John Newman
Year of Registration: 1863
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Dover
County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 781

and Thomas died:

Name: Thomas Newman
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Year of Registration: 1872
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 53
District: Dover
County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 550

and Ann died:

Name: Ann Potter Newman
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Year of Registration: 1876
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 37
District: Dover
County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 515

I'm liking this candidate.

Name: Thomas Newman + Ann Potter Thunder
Year of Registration: 1862
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Dover
County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 1129

That looks very interesting yes and somewhat likely, it's so difficult to determine whether you've got a correct one with a name like Newman, it's so common, but this John's parents did die when this John was a child. I could get a marriage certificate for John and Frances but that would be an Irish one and I don't know the year of marriage. I might ask my mother if she knows any more information actually, but I'm doubtful she'll have more than what I have.

The John in the Barnardo's home looks like this one in 1891:

Name: John Newman
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Lucy
Gender: Male
Where born: Folkestone, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Brighton
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Employment status: View Image
Registration district: Brighton
Sub-registration district: St Peter


Name: John Newman + Lucy Tillstone Rustigine
Year of Registration: 1891
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Brighton
County: Sussex, East Sussex
Volume: 2b
Page: 372


... so if they are two different John Newmans (this one and the one in Dover in 1871), then there's still a chance!

You're missing an item of information to allow you to make connections, eh? A parent's name, a place of birth ... any one of them could clinch something.

It always reminds me of those old brain-teasers -- which man owns the giraffe, and who drives the Volkswagen? They *do* give you what you need to figure it out. One's ancestors are often far less considerate. ;)

I know for definite now I've just looked at my information that John was born 1867 approx, because we have the information from his grave.

Yes I wish they had written down everything then there would be no problems ;).

Also I've found that he had a brother called Thomas who went to Canada.

I found now that 1876 at 9 yrs old was the year that John went to live with an aunt and uncle in Ireland. His father died not his mother, but she couldn't keep them because of no allowances. Sorry I only just found this information in an old letter from a aunt.

Alrighty then -- maybe we can work sideways!

I'm going to dredge around in the Canadian censuses.

The 1911 census at least gives exact birthdates.

If we can find a likely candidate, we can check for his birth in the GRO index ...

First, from the 1881 at familysearch, there are two Thomas Newmans born 1857-1877 in England.

The first is a son with intact parents. So is the second. Obviously, your Thomas would probably be a little young to be in Canada in 1881.


The next available census is 1901, and there are two candidates -- bearing in mind that the Cdn censuses are sometimes virtually unreadable because of the handwriting and image quality, and Ancestry's transcription is at least as bad.


Name: Thomas Newman
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Age: 41
Birth Date: 18 Oct 1859
BIRTHPLACE: England
Relation to Head of House: Husband
Spouse's Name: Isabel
Immigration Year: 1880
Racial or Tribal Origin: English
Nationality: Canadian
Religion: Presbrterian
Occupation: Storeman
Province: Quebec
District: Montréal (City/Cité)
District Number: 177
Sub-District: Montréal (City/Cité) Saint-Laurent (Ward/Quartier)
Sub-District Number: A-13
Family Number: 57
Page: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Isabel Newman 40
Thomas Newman 41
John Newman 14
Annie Newman 7
Arthur Newman 6

Immigration year 1880, children born in Canada.


Next up:

Name: Thomas Newman
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Age: 27
Birth Date: abt 1874
BIRTHPLACE: England
Relation to Head of House: Alone
Immigration Year: 1894
Nationality: Canadian
Occupation: Miner
Province: The Territories
District: Unorganized Territories/Territoires Non-Organisés
District Number: 206
Sub-District: (Steamer/Paquebot) "Norah" (Yukon)
Sub-District Number: F-95-f-5
Page: 20


Might correspond better to someone whose mother had to give him up in 1876. By 1876, a child born in 1859 (the other candidate here) would likely have been capable of self-sufficiency and simply gone on his way. Possibly to Canada, of course.


Next census: 1911. Actually, there was a census of western Canada in 1906, which would include that 1874 Thomas if he were still there.

... Not seeing that 1874 Thomas in 1906; there's one in Regina, but he reports born in Ontario.


Trying 1911.


The one in Regina is still there, still reporting born in Ontario, this time showing as married to Robert. I assume that's the original wife Bertha. Children Harold and Pearl.


Here's a new one:

Name: Thomas Newman
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Age: 38
Birth Date: Sep 1872 <<<
BIRTHPLACE: England
Family Number: 37
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse's Name: May
Immigration Year: 1907 <<<
Tribal: English
Province: Ontario
District: York South (Toronto)
District Number: 138
Sub-District: Ward 7
Sub-District Number: 48
Place of Habitation: 152 Asler Av
Census Year: 1911
Page: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Newman 38
May Newman 43 - born in England
Joan Newman 8
Charles Newman 6
Thomas Newman 4
John Widdop 27
Alex Mc Forlane 23


-- all children born in England.

Joan Newman born Nov 1903 looks like this one in the GRO index:

Name: Joan Eliza Newman
Year of Registration: 1903
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: St Marylebone (1902-1977)
County: Greater London, London
Volume: 1a
Page: 577

Thomas Newman Jan 1907, Charles Newman Dec 1904, not picking them out so easily.

For Thomas Sr. himself, he's on the Q3-Q4 cusp, Sept 1872, also not possible to identify definitely.

I just can't read Thomas's occupation in 1911, but he works in a shop and his neighbours are painters and labourers.

Of course the supremely annoying thing is that although Ontario birth records on line provide both parents' full names, we can only access Ontario births up to 1909. If they had more kids after 1911, we won't know for a while yet. I checked for 1907-1911 (in case of deaths in infancy), but none.


to continue ...

Son Thomas in that 1911 household died, of scarlatina/circulatory failure:

Name: Thomas Newman
Death Date: 10 Apr 1914
Death Location: York
Gender: Male
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1907
Birth Location: England



So I want to know what happened to that Thomas who was in the 1901 census in Assiniboia ... but unless he's the one later married to Bertha, I dunno.

Big problem here is that the Thomas and May in Toronto are so old and their children so young. They could have left older kids behind in England, or married late. Tracking down their marriage, whew.


But look what I did find, once I paid attention.


Name: Joan Eliza Newman
[Joan Eliza Pinney]
Birth Place: London England
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1904
Father Name: Thomas Newman
Mother Name: May Mary Taylor
Spouse Name: Alva Earl Pinney
Spouse's Age: 27
Spouse Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897
Spouse Birth Place: Norfolk CO Ontario
Spouse Father Name: William Cornelius Pinney
Spouse Mother Name: Lilly Victoria Sherman
Marriage Date: 22 Mar 1924
Marriage Place: York
Marriage County: York
Registration district: York
Family History Library Microfilm: VRMCAN1923_102593


I was right about the Joan Eliza Newman birth in the GRO index. If this should turn out to be your Thomas, we'd be making headway. But we still have no way of knowing.


Name: Thomas Newman + Mary May Taylor
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Marylebone (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 1296

But of course they're nowhere to be found in the English 1901, to get birth places. Just not to be found.


Now, does it seem likely that your Thomas emigrated sooner rather than later after his father's death?

Although records are incomplete ... apparently not as a Home Child:

1. NEWMAN Thomas 15 M Vancouver 1895
2. NEWMAN Thomas 10 M Canada 1903

although it's conceivable that the age of that first one was understated. And he might then correspond to the one in the Yukon in 1901 -- if he had been sent to the Prairies as farm labour, e.g., and became a miner. Destination was Hamilton, Ontario, but the party was 42 male children, so I suspect they got distributed from there.


Another one in 1911, probably a little old, with married son:

Name: Thomas Newman
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Age: 50
Birth Date: Mar 1861
BIRTHPLACE: England
Family Number: 49
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse's Name: Kate
Immigration Year: 1905
Tribal: English
Province: Alberta
District: Red Deer
District Number: 5
Sub-District Number: 14
Census Year: 1911
Page: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Newman 50
Kate Newman 53
Ethel Newman 69
Thomas H Newman 25
Alice Charlott Newman 23
Thomas Chas Newman 2


Do you suppose your John might also have had a brother Charles?

Name: Charles Newman
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Age: 35
Birth Date: Jan 1876
BIRTHPLACE: England
Family Number: 125
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse's Name: Clara Maude
Immigration Year: 1882
Tribal: English
Province: Ontario
District: Waterloo North
District Number: 130
Sub-District: Waterloo
Sub-District Number: 3
Place of Habitation: Waterloo
Census Year: 1911

That Newman -- who gave his birthdate as 13 May 1874 in 1901 -- apparently was a Home Child (from his marriage to Clara, his father's name was William, mother's blank):

Name: NEWMAN
Given Name: Charles
Age: 7
Sex: M
Ship: Circassian
Year of Arrival: 1882
Departure Port: Liverpool
Departure Date: 22 July 1882
Arrival Port: Quebec
Arrival Date: 06 August 1882
Party: Macpherson's
Destination: Not Given
Comments: Departed Londonderry 28 Jul 1882

... possibly the one in the Kings Norton Union Workhouse in 1881 ... the one in North Hyde Hounslow St Marys Orphanage had a brother Edward ...

There are also Charles-s who are nephews and grandsons, and the same for Thomas-s, the name we're actually looking for in addition to John. They're all over England, in 1881, without parents.

Well, I'd hoped the Canadian connection might find a clincher, but it seems it was not to be. If you see anything you think is interesting, holler!

I have no idea what his brother Thomas did while there, so that makes it difficult, I am aware that he went to Canada by an Orphan society.

Ah, then he did come to Canada as a Home Child.

And he could be that one I was talking about:

1. NEWMAN Thomas 15 M Vancouver 1895

if he were born not long before 1876, and his age was understated.


Name: NEWMAN
Given Name: Thomas
Age: 15
Sex: M
Ship: Vancouver
Year of Arrival: 1895
Departure Port: Liverpool
Departure Date: 28 March 1895
Arrival Port: Halifax
Arrival Date: 07 April 1895
Party: Dr Stephenson's party
Destination: Hamilton, Ontario
Comments: Mr Frank Hill in charge.42 males
Source: Library and Archives Canada/Bibliothèque et Archives Canada
Reference: RG76 C 1 b
Microfilm: C-4516
Type of Record: Passenger Lists/Listes de passagers

And that one on the steamer Norah in 1901 just looks most like him.

It's possible that he died in Canada before the 1901 census. You can search in
Ontario
- at Ancestry, free searching, pay for info: http://www.ancestry.ca/search/ (Ontario BMDs)
or Manitoba
http://web2.gov.mb.ca/cca/vital/Query.php
or British Columbia
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/textual/governmt/vstats/v_events.htm
to see whether anything looks like it fits.


This is where to search for Home Children sent to Canada:

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/home-
children/001015-100.01-e.php?
PHPSESSID=ctt4ibln6aqte5e2h1pfim9f67

(have to copy and paste the url)

There is also a ton of info available on line, including some services to help in tracing family members, that can be found by googling for

"home children" canada

The search site linked above doesn't seem to have nearly as much info as I'm sure it did before it was recently reorged, including the years covered by the database (there are gaps).


You might just contact GR members with family members named Newman born in Canada 1890-1910 or so, and see whether anyone's descended from Thomas!