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This one could be tricky - see details in message body.

Overall Goals of this search:
1) Short term: Find the truth about her first name - always known within family as Kathleen but see 'findings so far', below.
2) Medium term: Locate and obtain her birth certificate, for info on her parents
3) Long term: Locate and obtain her marriage certificate and see what she declared her names as, at the time.
4) Longer term: Establish the legality or otherwise of the useage of 'pet' names on BMD certificates and discuss the implications of this on the business of family history research.


FINDINGS SO FAR
First name: Kathleen (source: family memory)
Middle name: May (source: original Death Cert; Surrey NW #269)
Last Name: Tubby (source: BMD index entry for daughter's birth)
Date of death: 26/12/1939 (source: original death cert)
Age at death: 50 years (source: registrant, her husband, himself age 58 at the time - make allowances for error on his part)
Date of birth: Not satisfactorily determined at this time.

Birth index searches on TUBBY, Kathleen (*any* Kathleen).
negative result - Q3 1888
Q4 1888 - see explanation below
negative result - Q1 1889
negative result - Q2 1889
negative result - Q3 1889
negative result - Q4 1889
negative result - Q1 1890

Q4 1888 entry found for "Cathleen May" {Blything 4a 855}
(Note: I looked for 'Blything' in an AA road atlas and found nothing, so it must be purely administrative and may even be 'extinct', in the present day)

So this was the nearest match I could make, partially corroborated by the presence of the right second name and had me thinking she may have personally decided to change from Catherine May to Kathleen May at some stage in her life.

The only way I can see of resolving this is to find her with her family in 1891 (age 3, as Catherine) and 1901 (age 13, old enough to be fussy over what to be called).

As for location of her family, I have "Cawston, Norfolk" but need to search my notes to find how aI arrived at this. I think family memory was limited to "Norfolk" and my searches paired up the Tubby name with the Cawston location. Treat with caution!

Corroborative evidence of family relocation from Norfolk to Surrey (known to be in/near Guildford by 1915, Addlestone by 1939) would be highly appreciated.

Spouse Frank Silvester Ellis (b Q3/1881) was born in Eastbourne but his elder brother was born in Kent. So we are trying to find out how Kathleen from Norfolk met up with a man from Sussex, (who had a brother in Dover, Kent), somewhere in the Surrey area!

If name discrepancies are unacceptable for this type of search, please just say so. I will accept but ask if you could advise me on the best course of action, so as to return to the search-request stage.

regards,

Mark

Wow, thats a lot to take it. Tubby is a very localised Norfolk name if thats of any help.

Can you give us just one piece of information you want to find first please so we can concentrate on one bit at a time.

You are looking for a Catherine Tubby born 1888 possibly in Blything with her family in Norfolk in 1891 - yes?

Blything does exist - its in Suffolk. I know its still there - LOL - you should always google for information on places and reg districts - see Genuki:

http://www.genuki.org.uk:8080/big/eng/SFK/RegDists.html

Concerning how she met her hubby - well people were travelling all over the country for work so I cant see that a problem to worry about at all.

Do you have her marriage certificate? I cant see a reference to her fathers name above?

If its George and he was an ag lab:

Name: Catherine M N Tubby
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Female
Where born: Cawston, Norfolk, England

Civil Parish: Cawston
Ecclesiastical parish: Cawston
Town: Cawston
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Aylsham
Sub-registration district: Eynsford
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Catherine M N Tubby 3
George Tubby 30
Hannah Tubby 34

Heres the marriage if you havent got it - all freely available on freebmd - I would suggest you also take an ancestry sub to help your research if you intend to do any further study.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1915
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ellis Frank S Tubby Guildford 2a 139

Tubby Kathleen M Ellis Guildford 2a 139

You can buy the cert from GRO online, using the above reference for £7.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

who did she marry ?

Weve found it Jen - LOL

Oh and any one can change their name as long as its not done for an illegal purpose. Catherine to Katherine is a minor change and I would think that Blything girl is likely yours,. But get the marriage cert as above first to see if the fathers name matches with the census result.

The 1915 marriage fits with two births in Guildford in 1915 and 1918

birth?
Kathleen Miriam M Tubby
Year of Registration: 1887
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Aylsham
County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 78 (click to

Kathleen Tubby
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Fritton, Suffolk, England

Civil Parish: Fritton
Ecclesiastical parish: Fritton
Town: Fritton
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Mutford
Sub-registration district: Gorleston
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Tubby 31
Kathleen Tubby 5
Mary Tubby 31
Robert Tubby 7

You need to get that marriage cert to find out dads name before you can decide which girl is the right one.

Heather,

Wow!

I stop for a bite to eat, come back and there's a whole bunch of replies. Give me 30 mins to take this all in and I'll come back with further clarifications.

I do have "Gorleston Mutford" (Suffolk) in my notes but thought it was a false lead at the time.

One of the birth indexes I listed as "negative result" (neg for "Kathleen") contained a "TUBBY Gordon V." registered in Mutford. That was Births 1889 Q1.

If he's not a part of my Tubby's h'hold in 91 or 01, that discounts the Mutford Kathleen?


Many thanks for your efforts so far. Bear with me while I do some working out.


Mark
(will be back with more info soon)

It wasnt just me Mark.

Re Gordon, rather depends on whether he lived or died or whether he was with granny or friends the night of the census.

As said previously to do this in a methodical manner, you need to work backwards which means to find out Kath or Cath's fathers name and occupation from her marriage cert. Buy that first get the information on there and then go back to the trail.

Heather,

I stopped short of getting census prints but the electronic data showed the Mutford Kathleen as missing from the 1901 census. That could be due to the search terms I specified "Tubby Kathleen M" but I may have played around, tried without the second initial, without any forenames at all and so forth. Each time, she was missing.

In my notes, I put "either dead, emigrated or married by age 15!!"


A big thank you for giving me the marriage cert ref as I can put that in my next batch of cert orders.

Her parents names are unknown to family memory, so I still cannot decide which Kathleen is the right one so I'm hoping the marriage cert will resolve that.


Mark


@ Glitter Baby

1915 birth is my dad's mum, so that cert is already in the family.
1918 birth was actually --/12/17 but evidently wasn't registered until January or else some admin reason (war ongoing) pushed it into the indexes for Q1 1918. Cost me 2 credits to find that out, but I know better than to do that, now. :-D
Cert would not add new info, so isn't required.

Thank you kindly for looking.

@ jen yorkshire

this is an interesting find. If hubby Frank was the type to think it impolite to ask her age, then that explains how he could have got it wrong on the death cert. If her birth name had been Catherine, he may have been completely unaware of that as well, hence Kathleen goes on the cert, making it no better than 'family memory' in terms of quality.

Big thanks to you also.


M

Heather,

your latest reply came in while I was drafting that long post.

I should have the Blything birth cert by next week and will post results here. Query not ready to be marked 'sorted' just yet but I think no further searches are required for the remainder of today.

Thanks again


Mark

Always work backwards Mark, it would be prudent and time saving to get the marriage cert before getting a birth cert.

When you get the birth cert we still wont know if its the right girl because we wont know her fathers name as per her marriage cert.

Do get an ancestry sub, I feel that you are possibly buying units on here - thats a very expensive way to search. Get a sub and you have 24/7 usage at no extra costs plus all the images you want and all the bmd and lots of other information you will need later on.

Hi Heather,

Ancestry sub... can I just say that I'm in an awkward position at the moment and leave it at that?

Would prefer to confine this issue to PM (when it's working properly again).

I appreciate the thought though.


M

INTERESTING NEW DEVELOPMENT!



We know the following
1) Catherine May Tubby, registered in Blything
[cert {1888 Dec Blything 4a 855} currently on order]
2) changed to Kathleen May (at indeterminate date)
3) Goes on to marry Frank Silvester Ellis
[cert {1915 Q1 Guildford 2a 139} is in ONS basket]
4) Frank's brother is Edward Oscar Ellis

NEW MATERIAL
5) Edward Oscar Ellis and Rachel Helen Tubby are found on a pre-1912 marriage cert, with 4 names.
[cert {1906 Q1 Elham 2a 1551} --see Q's below--]

Family memory is of an "Auntie Helen" though she'd actually be Great-Grand-Aunt(F'sM'sSide) ("G-GAFMS") to me.

Bit of a coincidence though. Musn't leap to conclusions. Next: find Rachel Helen's YOB

freebmd gave me

Rachel Helen Tubby 1883 Q1 Blything 4a 850 (Suffolk)

There's that Blything place again! Maybe my foolish 'punt' on the Catherine May (Blything) wasn't so far off the mark, after all.

QUESTION
I don't want to order two lots of marriage certs, only to end up with the same piece of information (parents' names). I don't know if the pre-1912 would even help, seeing as how they couldn't even be a***ed to do something as simple as say who was pairing with whom.

BUT
There is still this uncertainty over Kathleen/Catherine. 1 person with a changed name or two unrelated people? Her mge cert does not tell me who Rachel Helen's parents are, so it looks like I can't wriggle out having to order both!

POTENTIAL SIDETRACK
A chance discovery at freebmd...

MAR 1886 TUBBY Female St Faiths 4b 103
Cawston (see earlier in the thread) is not in freebmd's list of places in the St Faiths District but is ~1.5 mi from BRANDISTON which IS listed.

No-name on the cert opens the door for Kathleen May to have /always/ been Kathleen May.

So, could some kind soul please search in 1891 and 1901 for "Rachel Helen Tubby" (the eldest dr) and see if that resolves the matter by retrieving Kathleen as well, their parents and any hitherto unknown sibs?

Sorry this is all so long-winded but you should have a better picture of the situation now and I hope you can help me.


regards,

Mark

rachel tubby on the 1891

note :she has a sister KATE.!!!

Name: Rachel Tubby
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Halesworth, Suffolk, England

Civil Parish: Halesworth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Halesworth
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England

Street address:Chediston street

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Blything
Sub-registration district: Halesworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Alice Tubby 10
Kate Tubby 2
Mary Ann Tubby 34
Mary Ann Tubby 14
Rachel Tubby 8
Thomas Tubby 36 occ stonemason
Thomas Tubby 5


View

1901
rachel left home by now but Kate is still at home!

Name: Kate Tubby
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: Halesworth, Suffolk, England

Civil Parish: Halesworth
Ecclesiastical parish: Halesworth St Mary
Town: Halesworth
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England

Street address:72 Chediston street

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Blything
Sub-registration district: Halesworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 120
Household Members: Name Age
May Parsley 25
Alice Tubby 22
John Tubby 10
Kate Tubby 13
Thomas Tubby 47 widower occ stonemason
Thomas Tubby 16

seems to be the same address as the 1891

Shirley!

Woo Hooo!! Thank you thank you thank you!

Sisters, brothers too!

I think I need a little lie down. I'll be back when I've taken this all in.

Very moving.. and I don't handle that sort of stuff too well.


Mark

EDIT COMPLETE: Freebmd results

(A lot of Tubby births from Blything to sift through 1840-1900)
No Thomases after 1850 and before T.W., below, who might be outwith family.
Date range is 1840-1900; District restriction: Blything
---------------------------------------------------------91---01---
TUBBY Mary Ann Blything 13 413 (MAR 1848)____43---53
TUBBY Thomas Wakeling Blything 4a 642 (MAR 1861) 30---40
TUBBY Mary Ann Blything 4a 755 (JUN 1876)____15---25
TUBBY Alice Beatrice Blything 4a 796 (MAR 1881) 10---20
TUBBY Rachel Helen Blything 4a 850 (MAR 1883) 8---18
TUBBY Thomas Blything 4a 907 (MAR 1886)_____5---15
TUBBY Catharine May Blything 4a 855 (DEC 1888) 2---12

Plenty of creativity over claimed ages or else a routine of not registering the birth until age 1 or 2. Suggestive of a tough time with ante-natal health, perhaps?
I'm not convinced I've got the right Thomas (senior). Either down to genuki gaps or he was born outside this district and my search is too narrow.

--------------------Meanwhile, up in Norfolk-----------
TUBBY Female St Faiths 4b 103 (MAR 1886) 5---15

Same quarter as Thomas (junior) but I have to remind myself this is time of registration, not actual dates.


Shirley, I posted my reaction before seeing your 1901 reply. Thank you for that, once again.

I will mark this as sorted but still need a second pair of eyes, to make sure I'm not missing crucial details. Is it okay to a continue discussions on a 'sorted' thread? (it hogs a slot on the forum's front page which oter people might need)

Marriage of Thomas Tubby to Mary Ann

Sep 1874 Blything 4a 1065
BURGESS Harry Blything 4a 1065
Croft Mary Ann Blything 4a 1065
Girling Mary Ann Blything 4a 1065
Tubby Thomas Blything 4a 1065


I think that's as far as we can take it, for today.

Am I to understand that, with this type of marriage cert it is NOT safe to assume that - in this case - Girling is to Tubby and Croft is to Burgess, just based on proximity on the page?

Shirley,

I have the birth cert now but hold fire until the marriage cert arrives (next Monday-ish) before we consider any of the following in any way conclusive...

REGISTRATION DISTRICT Blything
Sub district of___ Halesworth
in the County of___Suffolk
#429
Eighth September 1888
Catherine May
Girl
Thomas Tubby
Mary Tubby formerly Croft
Stone Masons laborer (sic)
Mary Tubby | Mother | Chediston | Halesworth
Thirteenth October 1888


Kath from Catherine isn't that unexpected.

Kathleen from Kath is still unexplained, especially as birth indexes for Blything showed another one of that name (minus the May part), slightly older than this one.

Fingernail biteage is in progress....

See you next week.


M