Genealogy Chat

BIRTH OF MARY GILLIES.

Known facts: · Joseph Gilbert Brown born 1850 22 Mercer St Longacre Westminster [My grandfather -I have the certificate, he became a pianoforte maker] · Mother - Mary Brown Brown formerly Gillies [1851 census born Edinburgh Scotland, ’61 & ’71 census just says Scotland’] · Father - John Brown Dairyman · Brother John born 1843 22 Mercer St as above, same details [I have cert] · 1851 census Mary Ann aged 9; Elizabeth aged 7 both born in St Martins · 1861 census Clara aged 6 born St Pauls Covent Garden??? CANNOT FIND BIRTH RECORDS FOR ANY OF THE GIRLS Possibilities: 1. Marriage of Mary Gillies to John Brown [lace maker both of Lambeth Walk]- Jan 1839 Lambeth – father Gilbert Gillies [cabinet maker] Joseph Brown [Lace maker] Gilbert Gillies & Ann Archer were witnesses 2. The only Mary Gillies that I can find that had a father Gilbert was born 23.01.1815, christened 29.01.1815 Kilchrenan & Dalavich Argyll, mother Isabella McIntyre. This would make her 3 years older than listed on the censuses. 4. Marriage of Gilbert Gillies & Isabella McIntyre 7.03.1811 Kilchrenan & Dalaveich. – Children: John 24.01.1812 Margaret 8.05.1813 Mary 29.01.1815 – too early to be 32 in 1851 Isabell 24.12.1816 Christina 19.07.1818 5. Marriage of Gilbert Gillies to Helen McLaren 19.06. 1817 Edinburgh Parish Midlothian - Children Gilbert 19.12.1819 Peter 30.12.1821 - NO MARY THAT I CAN FIND 6. Death of Gilbert Gillies – 11.06.1850 126 Regent St Lambeth Church District, notified by Elizabeth Gillies of 5 Doris [David?] St., Lambeth 7. There is an Elizabeth Gillies, wife of Peter Gillies [born in Edinburgh c. 1821] on the 1851 census, living at 12 David St Lambeth Although I can weave all sorts of plausible stories I cannot convincingly link the possibilities together because I can’t find the birth of Mary. Can anyone help please?

Nudge

Are you assuming that people always give the correct age in censues? If so, I don't think that's a valid assumption! There are a number of threads bewailing the inaccuracy of census ages - inaccuracies for any number of reasons. And even certs can be wide of the mark if it's in someone's interests to be a different age for a wedding, say. Christine

Thanks, no I'm not assuming a correct age, but there is a consistency throughout all the censuses & death certificate for Mary. It all points to 1818 as birth year.

It's quite conceivable Mary didn't know when exactly she was born. When my huband's gran applied for her pension in 1955 she was denied. Having obtained her birth certifcate she was actually 3 years younger than she'd always thought - born in 1893 and not 1890.

She may well have knocked a few years off her age to make her younger than her husband, rather than older. But looking through it all again, wouldn't she have called one of her daughters Isabella if it was that one? Also, wouldn't she have been christened in Edinburgh? Also, was her name really given as Mary Brown Brown formerly Gillies on her son's birth certificate? If so, it suggests that her original name was Mary Brown Gillies. Kate.

But when you say you can't find birth records for any of the girls, surely it's like looking for a needle in a haystack? I have some Browns from London in my tree, and I know it's really difficult to pick out the right ones. Kate.

Perhaps you can use Gilbert's occupation to help. I imagine a cabinet maker might be listed in directories, you could try to establish when he came to London. It's possible that the family moved before Mary was born, but she assumed she was born in Scotland because that's where her father came from. nell

Many thanks to all of you who have looked with new eyes on the problem. I think Mary may well have been older than she says except her birth year is consistently 1818 when worked back from census & death cert. Yes, she is given as Mary Brown Brown on 2 children's birth certs & her death cert. I can't find anyone born as Mary Brown Gillies! As far as searching the name Brown is concerned, yes anyone with names like that in their tree is on a loser. I was lucky that I had my grandfather's birth cert. from my mother, so I know the area they were in. It's all very frustrating, I feel like a detective, or even a novel writer, I could weave a very real story, but it could be complete fiction without the one piece of evidence of Mary's birth. If anyone has any more ideas I will welcome them. Jenny

Jenny One other tip - forget Mary and her blinky birth! Do another bit of your tree and carry on until you are stuck with that. Then dig up Mary again (figuratively speaking!). You may find you are inspired and your other research may have helped. nell

You could try looking through the 'Gillies' wills on Scotland's People. There is no exact match for Gilbert Gillies on there, but if you search using 'name variants' you will get lots of matches, but unfortunately it appears to ignore the first name on that search so you would have to look through them all yourself as there are hundreds! Anyway, on the first page is a John Brown Gillies died 1895 who may or may not be connected? By the way, you will sometimes find Scottish people who died after moving to England in the Scotland's People wills database; I know because I found my g-g-g-grandfather in there although I already had his English will. Anyway, I doubt if your Mary is the one whose birth you have found as the date and place don't match what you have from the censuses and also her name should be Mary Brown Gillies. Kate.