Genealogy Chat

Sorry this is so long but I thought it might help me to type out everything that I know. It didn't work so any suggestions welcome. Apologies if this family are starting to bore you! Lyla

I’m stuck with this Glasgow family in 1861. (Several people have searched 1851 but they don’t seem to be in Glasgow yet). Thomas Collins 55 shoemaker & Chelsea pensioner born Ireland Rebecca wife, 50 Ireland William son ,20, steward on steamboat, Ireland Henry son ,18, calender, Ireland ***my great great grandfather Thomas son, 13, calender, Ireland Thomas Collins married Rebecca Boyd in Glasgow 1854 (no further details as it was before registration began in Scotland). Thomas died in 1879 widower of 1. Sarah Hughes, 2. Rebecca Boyd. His parents are down as Thomas Collins, Farmer and Mary Balfour. He is listed on Rebecca’s death cert (1875) as “Sometime Marine Engineer” and on his own he is a “Mechanical Engineer (Master)”. Son Thomas (Rebecca’s stepson) registered both deaths. I can’t find a marriage, death or any definite census record for William. Both Henry and Thomas always stated that they were born in Glasgow but they are not registered there so I think Ireland seems more likely. Henry’s marriage states father Thomas Collins, shoemaker mother Sarah Hughes. He died in England so no parents listed. He was a boilermaker working on ships. Thomas junior was a minister. On his University records up until 1872 his father Thomas is still listed as a shoemaker so between 1872 and 1875 he switched to marine engineering. On Thomas junior’s retirement a newspaper article mentions that he spent his early years working in the office of his brother who “owned the Elliot Street Engine Works”. When Henry died his wife went into the Glasgow workhouse and the authorities could not find any information about Henry‘s birth. They wrote “son of Thomas Collins, soldier and Mary Hughes“. They also wrote born Gallowgate (?) which is Glasgow but then this is later crossed out because they wrote to his brother Thomas the minister who replied “I knew very little about Henry. My father was married twice. He was born I think in America”. Thomas junior didn’t marry until after his retirement but on his marriage and death certificates his parents are down as Thomas Collins, Farmer and Margaret Ann Crawford! I really don’t know who to believe or where to look next. When Thomas the minister registered his fathers death he knew that he was married to Sarah Hughes and Rebecca Boyd so why on his own marriage does he give different parents? Why didn’t he know anything about his brother - they appear to have been working together in 1861. And why did the workhouse think Henry’s mother was Mary Hughes and not Sarah Hughes? HELP!!!!!!! Lyla PS Just realised the time - think I’d better sleep on it!

Lyla It's very late/early and I may be feeling a bit dopey, but Thomas Collins is a common name. How do you know in each case that it is the same Thos senior and junior? Will have a proper look tomorrow. night night. nell

Hi nell Sorry if it sent you to sleep - it does that to me too. Far better than counting sheep! In all the documents mentioned, Thomas is down as the minister for Bonhill South. He was present at his father's death and he also corresponded about brother Henry's wife. On Thomas' college records and Henry's marriage they both say father was a shoemaker and Henry's marriage ties in with Thomas seniors death cert because the both menton Sarah Hughes. I think Thomas Collins must have taken up Marine Engineering as a hobby or something - or perhaps he was involved during the army. Son Henry was in the shipping business and the mysterious other son allegedly owned an engine works on Elliot Street. Wish I could find William as he might be able to swing it. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Thomas's letter seems to be hinting that he was Henry's half-brother and they didn't grow up together. Maybe Sarah died after Henry was born, and Thomas then took up with Margaret, before 1848, but never married her. Did Sarah die in America? Thomas Jnr seems to think she was there, around 1842. What happened to Henry if he was very young when his mother died? Did he grow up with relatives in Ireland or America? Probably there were other kids before William. Looks like one of them was maybe apprenticed in the mechanical arts and eventually, after 1861 perhaps, started or acquired the Engine Works. Big change in the family's fortunes. He was then able to give his under-educated brother Thomas a white-collar job and eventually pay his way through university. Somebody must have, you'd need a grammar-school education to get a scholarship and Thomas Jnr was a calenderer at 13 This is all invention and speculation, but I think you need to look at that engine works The only way I can see for Thomas Snr to become a master engineer is for the unknown son to have died and left the works to his father (at least until his kids were grown up), thus making Thomas Snr the proprietor of an engineering concern. Then he could be called a master engineer, at least on a death cert, even though he didn't know engineering.

If you don't have this info already, here are some possible Thomas Collinses in the National Archives: WO 97/32/58 THOMAS COLLINS Born CORK, Cork Served in 9th Dragoons Discharged aged 42 1824-1848 WO 97/288/32 THOMAS COLLINS Born LIMERICK, Limerick Served in 7th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 32 1824-1842 WO 97/369/28 THOMAS COLLINS Born DUBLIN, Dublin Served in 16th Foot Regiment; 20th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 33 1822-1840 WO 97/495/62 THOMAS COLLINS Born DRUMCREE, Armagh Served in 31st Foot Regiment Discharged aged 44 1826-1847 WO 97/951/81 THOMAS COLLINS Born CORK, Cork Served in 86th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 35 1820-1837 The documents show occupations, so you might hit lucky with a shoemaker and a place of discharge.

I have found lots of Mary/Sarah confusions and even read an article which suggested that there was divorce in the 1600s, based on a wife's name changing from Sarah to Mary. My personal theory - and it is only that - is that women named Sarah were often called Sairey. If the clerk were slightly deaf or the provider of the information did not speak clearly, then Sairey would be noted down as Mary. It is baffling if you have only a single source to rely on at any one time, but I have deaths in the name of Sarah and burials in the name of Mary.

Hi Robin Thanks, it really does help to hear it from someone else's perspective. I contacted the Glasgow Records Office and various other places but there don't appear to have been any Collins businesses in the area. I suspect the brother was more likely an employee or maybe he married into the firm. There is a gap between Thomas and Henry's ages so I guess it's possible that there was another woman involved. Both always say they were born in Glasgow so I suspect they turned up there at a fairly young age. I can find no trace of any of them or the supposed wives before the 1861 census apart from a possible Chelsea Pensioner who transferred his pension from Monaghan Ireland to Paisley in 1847. There is also a baptism on the IGI of a Sarah Hughes in 1804 Monaghan but maybe I'm stretching the imagination a bit too far there. I have not ventured into American records yet but you are right I should look at the possibility that they were there at some point. If only Thomas senior had left a will - both his sons did - it might have given me some clues. I think today I am going to have another look at my collection of Williams I have stored on scotlandspeople site. Thanks again for taking the time to read this - your thoughts have been very helpful. Lyla

and if you search the censuses for Sary, there are some spelt that way. A lot of them are Sary Ann. People who called their kids Sarah Ann probably intended it to be pronounced that way. Otherwise it would be Sararrann, yuck

Hi Brenda Yes I have all those and more but no shoemakers. I also looked at the WO pension books for Glasgow and found the one transferred from Monaghan. Trouble is there were no Thomas Collins in the regiment listed (32nd)! I keep going back to the one in the 31st regiment but I couldnt read that particular occupation. Thanks for the info on Mary/Sarah. That would at least elimimate one woman from the equation! Lyla

By the way, you have inadvertently solved a Sarah/Mary problem on another branch of my tree. I had no idea they could be the same. Thanks for that, no wonder I couldn't find a death or re-marriage! Lyla