Genealogy Chat

Chris - there are two Thomas Chapmans (Chapmen?) born Croydon 1884, the one you found and:

CHAPMAN, THOMAS DANIEL BRIGHTY
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 240

They might, of course, both refer to the same birth.

The burial is very tempting!

What was the census process in 1881? Data collector knocks on door, asks questions, and writes down answers, then transfers his notes to the official return? I've seen some pretty wild associations between towns and counties in the census, did this rely on the local knowledge (or lack of it) of the data collector?

Name: Eliza Brighty
Registration Year: 1853
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Henstead

Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 186

Henstead is quite a hike from Dereham ...

possible other children

CHAPMAN, LAURENCE DANIEL OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1912 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 762





I think these children belong to another Chapman/Oakley marriage ........

CHAPMAN, ELIZABETH MAY OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in DOWNHAM Volume 04B Page 293

CHAPMAN, ELLEN MAUD OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1911 S Quarter in DOWNHAM Volume 04B Page 588

CHAPMAN, CORA OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1913 J Quarter in AUCKLAND Volume 10A Page 444

CHAPMAN, TOM OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in AUCKLAND Volume 10A Page 519



NOTE:- the new GRO Index ends at 1915, but mmn is shown on Freebmd from July 1911.

possible birth registration for Lloyd George

CHAPMAN, LLOYD GEORGE OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 661


Marriage of Daniel and Mabel ............

Marriages Sep 1906 (>99%)

CHAPMAN Daniel Wandsworth 1d 1471
OAKLEY Mabel Louisa Wandsworth 1d 1471

I had the same hypothesis re Thomas and Eliza in 1881, but hadn't picked up on the accent for Dereham vs Durham.

That does make it a real possibility that she is Eliza Brighty.

(no idea on that Keith, could be initials of somebody, or something 'railway' related)

Chris :)

(just to add, a Baptism and Burial for below)

Births Mar 1884 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Chapman Thomas Croydon 2a 293


Surrey, England, Church of England Burials, 1813-1987 (Ancestry)

Thomas Chapman
abt 1884 28 Feb 1884 Merton, St Mary
Parents, Thomas/Elizabeth. Abode, West Barnes)

Any idea what B.R. might mean, please Chris?

That's definitely the right address.

(saw below advert)

Chris :)

20 September 1884 - Western Morning News - Plymouth, Devon, England

Miscellaneous Wants.
Coal Trade. Wanted.
Retail Business in Devon or Cornwall. Full particulars in writing to B.R., Mr. Chapman, 165 Fentiman Road, London

(same 18th September)

I had come up with exactly the same hypothesis as ArgyllGran about Thomas and Eliza in C1881. I really like the Durham / Dereham confusion theory (because it might mean I can rescue the hypothesis) but just how realistic is it?

Thomas was named in the probate I posted earlier dated 1885.

Keith

We haven't yet found Eliza's husband Thomas after 1881 - or have I missed it?

She's still calling herself married in 1911.

EDIT:
No, she's not - she's widowed by 1911.
"Married" in 1901.

(could be that Dereham/Durham theory there AG, might be the ol' Norfolk accent!, lol)

Chris :)

(wondered if below)

Deaths Mar 1966 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
CHAPMAN THOMAS D 82 HOUNSLOW 5C 549


(not sure when Eliza died?, one on below 1914)

http://burials.wandsworth.gov.uk/

Deaths Jun 1914 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Chapman Eliza 59 Wandsworth 1d 538

If the 1891 census posted by Sylvia today at 1:47 is the correct one for Eliza, then maybe (long shot) this is her son Thomas Daniel:

Thomas Chapman
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Thomas Chapman
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Gender: Male
Where born: Not known
Civil Parish: Sutton
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Sutton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: Brighton Road
Occupation:
Registration district: Epsom
ED, institution, or vessel: S M D School for Boys and Girls
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 545
Folio: 137
Page Number: 13


South Metropolitan District Industrial School:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/SouthMetSD/

Re Eliza in the 1881 census, apparently born Durham -

The image doesn't say whether either Thomas or Eliza is married or unmarried. although all the other adults in the family are designated one or the other.

Theory -
maybe Eliza in 1881 is actually Eliza Brighty, living with Thomas, as yet unmarried but using the name Chapman.
Hockering is very near Dereham.
Perhaps when the clerk was taking the details, Eliza said she was born in Dereham, and he thought she said Durham.

Her YOB varies a lot in the censuses - from 1851 to 1857, although she was born at the end of 1850.

To clarify re the child who died in Croydon in 1884:-

As the Thomas Daniel born in Croydon in 1884 is the only Chapman / Brighty child born 1881-85, I think Daniel, who is with Eliza in 1901 and 1911, is that child.

The Thomas who died in infancy in Croydon is a red herring, I think.
This will be that child's birth:
Births Mar 1884 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas Croydon 2a 293

1901 says Daniel's YOB is 1882, but 1911 says 1884.
Penge is in Croydon reg district.

Thanks Chris! There's reference earlier to him being a dentist, I just haven't got to it yet! I'm still filling in the details two generations earlier.
Keith

(not sure if below already posted)

Chris :)

1939 Register (Find My Past)

77 Swaffield Road , Wandsworth, London,
Thomas D Chapman Inmate 23 Jan 1884 Male Dentist Registered Widowed


http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Wandsworth/

(77 coming up on google)

Thank you all for all the ideas, I’ve spent the morning working through some of your finds. Here’s an interim response, as you can see I’m barely halfway through …

Eliza Brighty: I only have the marriage record in which her father’s occupation is given as farmer (although it’s not easy to read). It therefore ties in with the C1871 which SylviaInCanada found. Mind you, the Brightys offer lots of opportunity for interpretation ;-))

I too wondered whether Thomas & Eliza might have emigrated but I found no matching travel records.

This looks highly probable:

CHAPMAN, THOMAS DANIEL BRIGHTY
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 240

As does this:

Deaths Mar 1884 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas 0 Croydon 2a 177

This is definitely Daniel’s death:

CHAPMAN, DANIEL 51
GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 306

confirmed by this probate record:

Chapman Daniel 15 April The will of Daniel Chapman, formerly of 1 Ravensdon Street Kennington Park but late of 165 Fentiman Road Clapham Road both in the county of Surrey Clerk in the employ of the London and South-Western Railway Company who died 26 March 1885 at 165 Fentiman Road was proved at the Principal Registry by Thomas Daniel Chapman clerk in the employ of the said railway company and Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman Bookseller's clerk both of 165 Fentiman Road the sons of the executors
Personal estate £168 5s 10d

which also incidentally gives an address for TDOC in 1885. However it also makes this possible death problematic:

Deaths Mar 1884 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas 0 Croydon 2a 177

The information on other members of the Chapman clan is also very useful, thanks!

And that C1891 for Rose looks correct, SylviaInCanada.

Thank you very much, SylviaInCanada & safc, the C1901 Wandsworth is exactly right and gives Eliza'a birthplace etc. Which blows a hole in my hypothesis that the Eliza in the 1881 is Thomas' wife. I'm still puzzled why I couldn't find that 1901 record ...

Which leaves us (me!) with the problem of the "first" Eliza Chapman who gave her birthplace as Durham. But which Eliza Chapman from Durham, and how / why did a station agent from Hampshire have a child in Durham?

Keith

From this website, Lloyd seems to have married Winifred Cordell O'Shea, who died 18 Jan 1999, aged 86.

http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=14&cid=800



Winifred C Oshea
in the Australia, Marriage Index, 1788-1950
Name: Winifred C Oshea
Spouse Name: Lloyd G Chapman
Marriage Date: 1935
Marriage Place: New South Wales
Registration Place: Quiindi, New South Wales
Registration Year: 1935
Registration Number: 17686

She and Lloyd are on ERs for many years in Tamworth, NSW, living in a house called "Con Amour".
Lloyd was a poultry farmer.


Winifred Cordell Chapman
in the Web: International, Find A Grave Index
Name: Winifred Cordell Chapman
Death Date: 1999
Burial Place: Moonbi, New South Wales, Australia
URL:

Grandson's death ??:


Lloyd George Chapman
in the Australia and New Zealand, Find A Grave Index, 1800s-Current
Name:
Lloyd George Chapman
Birth Date:
1911
Death Date:
2 Jan 1990
Cemetery:
Moonbi Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place:
Moonbi, Tamworth Regional Council, New South Wales, Australia
Has Bio?:
N
URL:
http://www.findagrave.com

Eliza and son Daniel in 1911:


Daniel Chapman
in the 1911 England Census
Name:
Daniel Chapman
Age in 1911:
27
Estimated birth year:
abt 1884
Relation to Head:
Son
Gender:
Male
Birth Place:
Penge
Civil Parish:
Wandsworth
County/Island:
London
Country:
England
Street address:
3 Beira Street, Balham, London S W
Marital Status:
Married
Occupation:
DENTIST
Registration district:
Wandsworth
Registration District Number:
26
Sub-registration district:
Streatham
ED, institution, or vessel:
20
Piece:
2305
Eliza Chapman 54 - born Norfolk, furniture duster
Mabel Chapman 24 - daughter-in-law
Daniel Chapman 27 - son
Lloyd George Chapman 0 - grandchild

Baptisms Teesdale 1860 Eliza Chapman Staindrop

http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/

(saw above for things Durham, if later Baptism)

(not bringing this lot, Cambs. way are you Keith, do hope not, lol)

Chris :)

Edits

Baptism
County Durham
Place Staindrop
Church name St Mary
Register type Bishop's Transcripts
Register entry number 1062
Baptism date 5 Aug 1860
Person forename Eliza
Person sex F
Person abode Staindrop
Mother forename Jane
Mother surname CHAPMAN
Register note See also baptism for Thomas William CHAPMAN on same date


Baptism
County Durham
Place Staindrop
Church name St Mary
Register type Bishop's Transcripts
Register entry number 1061
Baptism date 5 Aug 1860
Person forename Thomas William
Person sex M
Person abode Staindrop
Mother forename Jane
Mother surname CHAPMAN
Register note See also baptism for Eliza CHAPMAN on same date

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(not a lot Hockering, on above link, can be useful Norfolk, has a bit Outwell)


Clara Brighty
abt 1848 12 Oct 1873 John Thomas Stevenson St Jude, Southwark

(above Marriage, London, Ancestry, Father John, wits. John/Elizabeth Brighty)

(also below, Father John)

John Brighty
20 Sep 1874 Hannah Stevenson Holy Trinity, Newington

(notes both John Thomas and Hannah, have Father as Robert Stevenson. occ Platelayer)


(1881, Clara/JT, 49, Gladstone Street, Norwich Heigham, Norwich, Norfolk,


01 June 1889 - Thetford & Watton Times and People's Weekly Journal

Death
On the 22nd ult, at Hockering, John Brighty, carrier, aged 79, surviving his wife one year and eleven months.


Deaths Jun 1889 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
BRIGHTY John 80 Mitford 4b 170


Deaths Jun 1887 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Brighty Elizabeth 75 Mitford 4b 178

(if relating)


Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Hockering
Church name St Michael
Register type Transcript
Register entry number 501
Baptism date 1811
Person forename Elizabeth
Person sex F
Father forename Robert
Father surname RAMM
Mother forename Lucy
Mother surname DAWSON

(from things google, Robert Ramm, a wheelwright/Blacksmith. Burial 1846 Hockering. Lucy Burial 1856 Hockering)


http://www.origins.org.uk/genuki/NFK/places/h/hockering/

(mentions in Directories on above, also John)