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My paternal grandmother, Ellen Clare Webber was born near Poona, India in 1890 and married Alfred James Tatton though I can find no record of the marriage. They had a daughter, Lilian Mabel Tatton born on 3/10/1912 in Jubbulpore, India. Alfred is shown as a caterer on the birth/christening records. He was born in Southampton, England in 1871 though the family moved to Plumpstead when his father had a job as foreman in the Wholwich Arsenal. Any help for the marriage record?

on Ancestry his will
Tatton Alfred James of the Stag and Pheasant Hotel Humberstone Gate Leicester hotel manager died Dec 9th 1918 at the Royal Infirmary .
Admission with will 5th Feb. to Ellen Clare Tatton widow .effects £241.3s.7d

I have a copy of his will. He died in 1918 in Leicester, England where he was a hotel manager. He names my grandmother as his wife "Mrs ... Tatton". She married again in 1920 in Leicester ( where she lived until her death in 1963) and describes herself as "Helen Clare Tatton" (she had changed from Ellen to Helen by that time) and a widow in the marriage certificate. I have a good trace back several genarations and am reasonably confident about the connections including her father, Harry Septimus Webber who worked for the Great Indian Peninsula Railway. Just cannot get her first marriage despite many web searches and visits to the india section at the British Library.

Just for info

Births Sep 1914
TATTON Edwin A D Webber Leicester 7a 317

Also a submitted record in the IGI for Ellen's mother, in case you don't have it:

Harry Septimus Webber
Birth: 14 JAN 1894 Lanavla, , Maharashtra, India
Death: 24 FEB 1968
Father: Harry Septimus Webber
> Mother: Jane Garlic

The extracted baptism record for Ellen has her as Jane Cecilia.

Someone has submitted a marriage record for Harry Jr, but none for Ellen.

I'm reminded of an old Agatha Christie, in which there was a maid named Helen. A maid named Helen, someone sniffed, airs above her station: ladies are named Helen, maids are Ellen. ;)

Just a tip. Rather than just "I have a copy of his will", you might want to say "thanks for that!"

Also, in case it helps, the location of the death of a sister in young adulthood likely not long before Ellen's marriage:

Name: Mildred Mabel Webber
Gender: Female
Burial Date: 05 Nov 1906
> Burial Place: Bombay, Bombay, India
Death Date: 05 Nov 1906
Age: 19
Birth Date: 1887
Father's Name: H. Walker - mistranscription
(the baptism record shows the correct father's name)
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: B00263-2
System Origin: India-EASy
Source Film Number: 462972
Reference Number:
Collection: India Deaths and Burials, 1719-1948


Also, another sister married there:

Groom's Name: Frank Thompson
Groom's Birth Date: 1886
Groom's Age: 21
Bride's Name: Gertrude Webber
Bride's Birth Date: 1889
Bride's Age: 18
Marriage Date: 31 Oct 1907
Marriage Place: Bombay, Bombay, India
Groom's Father's Name: Frank Tompson
Bride's Father's Name: Henry Septimus Webber
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00207-6
System Origin: India-EASy
Source Film Number: 462974
Collection: India Marriages, 1792-1948

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html


Mind you, that is where Ellen was born. ;) Just thought it might help to see the family still in that location around that date, in case you didn't have them.

for info then could this be them coming back, image shows same job as on birth cert. but there is a little boy not girl with them and i am not sure if the name Jack is transcribed right
Name: Mr Tatton
Birth Date: abt 1871
Age: 43
Port of Departure: Calcutta, India
Arrival Date: 20 Apr 1914
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Colombo
[Plymouth]
Ship Name: Egypt
Search Ship Database: View the 'Egypt' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Peninsula and Orient Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 105581


me: Mrs Tatton
Birth Date: abt 1878
Age: 36
Port of Departure: Calcutta, India
Arrival Date: 20 Apr 1914
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Colombo
[Plymouth]
Ship Name: Egypt

Name: Jack Tatton
Port of Departure: Calcutta, India
Arrival Date: 20 Apr 1914
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Colombo
[Plymouth]
Ship Name: Egypt

Thanks to all!

In fact all the message from jansmith about his will which I was reponding to read simply "on Ancestry his will" which I took to be a tip where to search. It was not until after I had responded that the rest of the message appeared!

Edwin was my father and I have his birth certificate.

I also have fairly good info about about Harry S and Jane Garlic (even a picture of her father Phillip when he was ordained in Bangalore in 1854) and their children. Just this blank wall about Ellen's marriage to Alfred. I cannot fill in the gap between Alfred leaving his parental home in Plumstead (1890s?) and becoming a father in 1912!

its ok Richard i had pressed send before i had typed it as you cannot copy and paste the pages!!

Thanks but I do not think it fits. Caterer is correct but age of Mrs Tatton wrong - she was only 24 in 1914 and they definitely only had a daughter Lilian Mabel aged 18 months at that time. By June 1914 Alfred was The Manager of the George Hotel in Leicester -when and where my father Edwin was born.

deleted -- I'm an idiot -- looking in the wrong century!

I just wouldn't dismiss that passenger record out of hand, Richard.

The name isn't that common, the family composition is so close -- have you viewed the image to see whether there may have been a mistranscription of the child's name, e.g.?

Travelling in April to take up the position he held in June, that isn't too inconceivable.

Just curious how you know this:

He was born in Southampton, England in 1871 though the family moved to Plumpstead when his father had a job as foreman in the Wholwich Arsenal.

From the censuses?

Births Dec 1871
TATTON Alfred James Portsea 2b 461

Deaths Dec 1918
Tatton Alfred J 48 Leicester 7a 698

They do match (almost), and they're the only two records for the name (plus the child's birth), but can you be certain they're the same person? ;)

Given the age difference between Alfred and Ellen (say they married around 1912, he was 40ish), it wouldn't be too surprising if he'd already been married and possibly still was, which could be why you can't find a record of a marriage: if there wasn't one.

Yes, combination of trail through succesive cencuses and his parents marriage and birth certificates. Alfred's mother was Mary Lightowler daughter of coachman Thomas Lightowler. His father Frederick was a Wheelwrigt in Charlton when they married, then a Master Artificer at HM Gunwharf, Portsmouth when Alfred was born and then Foreman at the Woolwich Arsenal by the time he died in 1899. Addresses in censuses and cerificates are consistant. Alfred being married before Ellen is possible though census evidence tends to discount this.

I have the birth and death certificates for Alfred and the events you refer to are the same though the birth of Alfred is shown as the sub-district of Landport in the County of Southampton which I do not think conflicts with "Portsea"

Well if you have the birth cert for the birth in Dec 1871, then that's the one -- it should show Portsea as the registration district, though.

What I'm not getting is how you have connected that AJT to the one who died in 1918, husband of Ellen.

I know it seems intuitively pretty certain they're the same one, but as I understand it you don't actually have any document for your AJT showing his parents or place of birth, or exact birthdate.

You have that AJT in censuses only up to 1881, I gather. It's quite plausible that he then entered the military, e.g., and went to India that way.

Divorces and matrimonial causes 1858-1903 1 record (Find My Past)

1903 TATTON Alfred James

no. 3800 Tatton (Kathleen Margaret) v. T. (Alfred J)

(saw this, not sure if he fits!)

Chris :)

( just checked the N Archives site)...

Court for Divorce and Matrimonial Causes, later Su... J 77/782/3800
Divorce Court File: 3800. Appellant: Kathleen Margaret Tatton. Respondent: Alfred James Tatton. Type: Wife's petition [WX]. . Divorce Court File: 3800. Appellant: Kathleen Margaret Tatton. Respondent: Alfred James Tatton. Type: Wife's petition [WX].
Date: 1903
Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives

Well aha.

If we're working on the notion there is only one AJT, then that seems to be him!


I had wondered about this one in 1901:

Name: Henry Tatton
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Christchurch, Hampshire, England
Occupation: House Painter
Condition as to marriage: Married

Civil parish: Heysham
Town: Heysham
County/Island: Lancashire


-- edit --

That's this one, so rules him out:

Births Mar 1869
TATTON Henry Adolphus Christchurch 2b 598

Jan ... I know it's the AJT who married Ellen (or not).

What I'm asking is whether there is anything that actually confirms that he is the AJT whom Richard has tracked from birth in Portsea through the censuses with his family.

As I said, the odds seem pretty high that it's the same AJT, it's just that there isn't any definite confirmation as far as I can see.

We usually work from a marriage record that gives a father's name, to match with the father's name on a birth certificate and in censuses. That's what we're missing, here. ;)


Oh, deleted. I guess you saw my convoluted point. ;)

I'm one for going by logical deduction in these matters, for sure, I'm just saying we can deduce that the AJT who died in 1918 is the one born in Portsea, we just don't know it for sure.


What there sure isn't in England/Wales is a marriage for that couple who divorced!

sorry Janey saw that when i read your posts through again!!

You have all got me thinking about the connections. So here goes:-

1) My grandmother is referred to in AJT’s Will (dated 16/08/1918) as his wife Ellen Clare Tatton. My father’s birth certificate (1914) also shows Ellen and AJT as his parents and with same surname. He also refers to his deceased brother Edwin Harold (died 1914). Edwin had left shares in a Bolivian tin mine

2) 1891 Census records Edwin H Tatton, age 9 yrs, living at 57 Hanover Rd, Plumstead with his parents Frederick and Mary H Tatton. No Alfred though – he would have been 20 yrs old and so may have left home by then.

3) 1881 Census shows AJT living at 57 Hanover Rd, Plumstead with his parents Frederick and Mary H Tatton.

I look forward to any suggestions to fill the gap between Ellen’s birth in 1890 (I have seen the records in the India Section at the British Library) and her and AJT having their daughter Lilian Mabel Tatton in 1912. She was a very proper lady and I shudder at the thought of any hanky panky going on!

wrong birth day but?? think it says Naval seaman if someone could check on Ancestry. will look for birth about 1866 to dismiss him as yours.*** not found a birth in England at this time
Name: A J Tatton
Birth Date: abt 1866
Age: 27
Port of Departure: Durban, South Africa
Arrival Date: 24 Jun 1893
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ship Name: Umbilo
Search Ship Database: Search the 'Umbilo' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: No owner or agent listed
Official Number: 98050