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This is really a difficult one, we seem to have built up a bigger picture of the extended family, but are still no nearer to finding your elusive Thomas Clements born c1800....., with relatives like that I tend to put them to one side for a while and carry on with a different branch of the family.......sometimes when you come back to them later you find snippets of info. that you either didn`t see before or that maybe wern`t available at the time...the great thing about the internet, theres new stuff being added all the time.


Nicky

Hi Nicky,
Yes, that is the John Clements I came up with too and I believe him to be the right one.
I do'nt know about siblings as if John was from a first marriage and he was old enough to go out to work and did'nt get on with the step-mum (lucy)............
If only there was an 1831 census, that would help tremendously as it might give an insight to who else was living with John and Thomas at the time.
I am assuming Harriet Burley is a sister or cousin, but definitely a relative of some description.
I wish I could give you more concrete information, but unfortunately I do'nt have it.

Hi Nicola......So I presume that Harriet Burley {marriage cert. witness} is a relation of Elizabeth?....as for John bells or Bellow, we don`t yet know, I presume you also don`t know if John had any other siblings apart from Thomas jnr. and mary ann, and you think he had a different mother because of the age gap?................there could of course have been more siblings, just because they wern`t on the 1841 with Thomas and Lucy dosn`t mean there wern`t more. Have you ever managed to find John in 1841? he would only have been about 15/16 so wonder where he was?....... sorry lots of questions I know, but we`re ever going to help you find the elusive Thomas clements c1800, every bit of information is crucial.

Think this may be john in 1841

John Clements
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Gender: Male
Where born: Surrey, England

Civil Parish: St Mary
Hundred: Brixton (Eastern Division)
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street address: Bridge street

Occupation: View Image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Lambeth Church First
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Morgan 25 Head {Ind.}
Mrs Green 30
Mary Warner 20
John Clements 16 servant b. surrey
Ellen Harnedy 15
Matapha Ali 30

EDIT
Have just traced Elizabeth , John and children in Census through to 1881, when she is remarried to William Bruce {fishmonger}, in the hope that Thomas or another Clements senior were with them at some point, but have drawn a blank.

Nicky

I am going to take a look on IGI now, as what Nicky has found does sound feasible.

Hi Nicky,
I ca'nt remember where we found the name Hannah, it could of possible been on the IGI. There is a John,William and Mary Ann Clements all born 1823-1826 in Westminster, which apparently is not that far from Lambeth and the parents are Thomas Clements and Hannah..................maybe I was being presumptious, I do'nt know.
The witnesses on Johns and Elizabeth marriage cert where Harriet Burley and could be John Bells or Bellow, ca'nt read it.
Volume and Page no for marriage is V4 P291 if that is any help?

Been raking around the IGI again and found this......

THOMAS JONATHON CLEMENT Pedigree
Male


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: 12 NOV 1825

Christening: About 29 JAN 1826 Kennington Independent, Lambeth, Surrey, England

Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: THOS. CLEMENT Family
Mother: SARAH YOUNG

Could of course be a complete red herring, but year of birth is same as your John,........could he possibly have been named Thomas johnathan, but always known as John?

and also this, could of course be 2 totally different people, but we now know there were another James and Lucy in Lambeth.....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lucy Clements Pedigree
Female


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: OCT 1821 St Marys, Lambeth, Surrey, England

Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: James Clements Family
Mother: Lucy Clements



Nicky

Hi Nicola..........I too was helping you with this search yesterday, just reading back through it all I wonder where you got the name of Hannah for johns mother, Thomas`s 1st wife?, and who were the witness`s on John and elizabeths marriage cert.?


Nicky

Thanks alot, I did'nt really look at it from that angle.
I'll keep you posted.

Nicola

Hi Nicola

I was helping you with this yesterday...

I think that the few of us who worked on this with you yesterday have practically exhausted all lines of possibilities - I think now you may need to try to verify some of the information by ordering any certs that you can find.

The first one that comes to mind is the marriage of Mary Ann - this one:

Marriages Dec 1868

Clements Mary Ann Newington 1d 309
Hillier John Newington 1d 309
White Annie Kathleen Newington 1d 309
Wilkinson Ebenezer Newington 1d 309

If you can order that it might give you another snippet of info to tie things together - you just never know but without any concrete evidence all the information we've found for you so far is just theory (even though most of it seems to fit together).

The family that Nickydownsouth found for you seems a good one to keep hold of on your file. Reason being, the traditional naming pattern of children. Thomas named his first born son John (that would have been after his father) then the next son would have taken his name of Thomas, first born daughter given his mother's name...which seems to tie in with the info you have.

If only the 1841 census writing was clearer on that page so that we could see what occupation is down for Thomas - if it was anything to do with fish then you know you were on to a winner and obviously you have the scenario, as suggested above, that Thomas died and his wife Lucy took up with either his brother or even a cousin (James).

Those sort of things did happen now and then to prevent a widow and children ending up in the workhouse. My own 3xGrt grandmother ended up with her deceased husband's nephew (half her age too) and had several children by him.

I have a feeling that a man could not marry his brother's wife - not 100% sure though - but nothing to stop them living as husband and wife I guess, if nobody reported them.

Good luck and let us know if you need more help once the cert arrives.

Athena

Hi everyone, I have managed to sort myself out and get all the details that I think are relevant in solving this mystery, so here goes.

Thomas Clements b 1801 poss marriage to Hannah unknown. Son John b 1825, lambeth d dec 1874 lambeth.
Thomas marriage to Lucy b poss 1801 produced two children, Thomas b 1834 and Mary ann b 1836.

John m Elizabeth Burley 14.8.1845 of which I have the cert and it states the fathers as Thomas Clements,a fishmonger and James Burley , unable to read occupation.

John and Elizabeth had many children, James Thomas b 1846, d 1887, John b 1850 d 1864, Mary ann b 1855, Elizabeth Harriet b 1856, Richard John b 1859, Henry Frederick b 1861, Joseph David (my gggrandad) b 1862, William b 1865, Jane E b 1866 and Thomas b 1871.

John Clements b 1825 d 1874 aged 48 from Chronic Bronchitis. He was living at Arnolds Cottages at the time.
On the 1851 census, John's occupation is down as an Undertaker.

Hope this helps someone, who can ultimately help me, I'm desperate!!!!
Regards and many thanks for your time
Nicola

Potty - my geography isn't much good so I wouldn't know - but I just copied the info down that came up on the search I did online. Just double-checked and this is how it appears:

Thomas Clements 1846 Headington Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire

Thomas Clements 1848 Bicester Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire

Thomas Clements 1849 Headington Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire

Not sure if they mean Bucks was part of Oxfordshire back then or what?

The only information that I have about Thomas's son John is his dob 1825 ish, he married Elizabeth Burley b 1829 brighton,sussex in sept 1845 and died in 1874.
John and Elizabeth had several children including Joseph David (my great grandad) b 1862, Elizabeth b 1857, James b 1846 and about 5 others.
I will add on more information as it comes to me, hope this helps a bit more.
Nicola

Those deaths you found, Headington and Bicester are both in Oxfordshire and not Bucks.

I think that Thomas and Lucy only had the two children, those being Thomas junior and Mary ann, born 1834 and 1836.

Thanks everyone for your support and help over the last few hours. I ca'nt tell you how great it is too have fresh eyes casting a glance over this.
I managed to do the rest of the Clements tree without to much aggro, but John and Thomas are proving to real so-n-so's.
I will go through my paperwork tonight and add anything that may be helpful, and then, who knows we may just hit upon the jackpot!!!

Oh, just seen the new posts above - Nicky, well done, that family seems more likely doesn't it - being that there are both a James and Thomas closer in age.

Athena

Ok, have checked for deaths of Thomas between 1841-1851 - can't find any in the area they were living in 1841 - I think there was one in Wandsworth. Also checked Buckinghamshire deaths for same years as people often travelled home to birth parish/families when unwell so that they could die in parish of birth. There are three Thomas Clement's listed for 1846, 1848, 1849 in Bucks (two in Headington one in Bicester).

All of this still doesn't explain why, on the marriage cert of 1845 that Nicola has, it says that John's father was Thomas Clements a fishmonger - not James a Cowkeeper.

Going to rest my head for a bit now LOL

Athena

Potty...... thats the problem with the 1841, its so unreliable..... too many red herrings, and not enough info, ssssoooooooooo frustrating lol


Nicky

Athena

Been having lunch! re born in county in the 1841 - I couldn't make up my mind about that either.
The enumerator isn't consistent with his writing - sometimes it's "yes", sometimes a small y and sometimes a y with a bigger tail! One thing that strikes me as strange - everyone on that page was born in county. You usually get one or two on a page who weren't.

Also been routeing around the IGI Athena..... saw your family, but working on the Bucks theme as well came up with this.... only one I could find with brothers Thomas and James...


Clements, British Isles
Father: John , Mother: Mary
Exact Spelling: Off
Batch Number: C391374
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International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 5
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1. Ann - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 08 MAR 1801 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

2. James - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 26 DEC 1799 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

3. John - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 02 APR 1797 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

4. William - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 03 APR 1795 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

5. Thomas - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 17 JUL 1803 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

Notice James is about 4 years older than Thomas.....that also ties in with census info.if Lucy took up with james after Thomas.

Nicky