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I would be very grateful for any help in finding the following family on any other census records:
This is England 1851:

Name: William Paynter
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1803
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Susanna
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Christchurch Spitalfields
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub registration district: Artillery
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 12
Household Members: Name Age
William Paynter 48
Susanna Paynter 39
Emma Paynter 16
Maryann Paynter 13
William Paynter 11

I am trying to trace this family to confirm or rule out my theory that the Emma Paynter above could be Emma Poyton.

On the 1861 Census, Emma Monksfield, 1836 is the wife of Joseph Monksfield. She was born in Spitalfields.
Also in the house is an Esther Lyons (1791), who is indicated to be Emma's mother.

I have found the Marriage of a Joseph Monksfield and Emma Poyton, Dec 1856. Shoreditch, but no Joseph Monksfield and Emma Lyons.

So, was Emma Monksfield a Lyons before she married, in which case i cannot find the marriage reference.
Or was she Emma Poyton, in which case who is Esther Lyons?

I have looked for Poyton/Lyons marriages in case Esther remarried after having Emma, but no luck there.

Any thoughts?

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I am currently unable to reply to posts, so have had to update this one.

Evie ~
Im using Internet explorer, but looking through settings i cant see anything that could be preventing me from replying. I guess i will just have to wait for Genes to get back to me!

Yes, im going to take a gamble on that Certificate...its possible that she has named a father on it (though my Grandfather lied about who his father was on his!)

Thanks again for your input, they are certainly not proving an easy family to trace!

Well, here's the 1841 household in Bethnal Green -- relationships aren't stated of course, so throw 'em up in the air and see what you get!

John Lyons 45
> Esther Lyons 50
John Lyons 15
Caroline Lyons 12
Abraham Rolt 17
George Rolt 14
Susan Rolt 11
> Emma Paylor 6
William Bromley 17
Frederick Cole 18

I had thought maybe Lyons was Esther's name by a second marriage, but that would be backwards for the 1841 -- the older children are Lyons and Emma is Paylor (or whatever it actually says; I haven't checked the image).

I wonder whether Emma and John are actually Emma's grandparents, and reared her.

Children of William Painter and Susannah, in the IGI (reproducing duplicates to show births and christenings)

1. THOMAS PAINTER (mother Susan)
Gender: Male Birth: 29 NOV 1845 Saint Thomas Chartrhouse, Finsbury, London, England
5. JOHN PAINTER -
Gender: Male Birth: 29 JUN 1843
6. JOHN PAINTER -
Gender: Male Christening: 16 JUL 1843 Saint Luke Old Street, Finsbury, London, England
7. WILLIAM PAINTER -
Gender: Male Birth: 31 JAN 1841
8. WILLIAM PAINTER -
Gender: Male Christening: 21 MAR 1841 Saint Luke Old Street, Finsbury, London, England


William matches the 1851 household.

No William Painter + Susannah marriage in the IGI.

There is a same-name couple who married in Shropshire and had kids in the 1820s, but they would seem to be coincidence. Your William shows as born in Bethnal Green in the 1851.

Can you find the 1851 Paynter household anywhere on the 1841? I sure can't.

Btw, have you checked the 1851 image to see whether Paynter is what it really say? Not Poynter, e.g.?

This is the best match for any of them that I can find:

Name: William Poynton
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Christ Church Spitalfields
Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub registration district: Mile End New Town

Bernard Poynton 30
Catherine Poynton 30
Mary Poynton 8
William Poynton 1
Philip Latter 18
Samuel Mabbit 60


But it doesn't seem to help.

And then of course there's this.


EMMA POYTON
Birth: 09 DEC 1835
Christening: 31 MAY 1837 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London, England
Father: JAMES POYTON
Mother: ANN
Batch No.: C040807

Hi Gemma - got your PM. Here's the trick. ;)

Since the ... improvements ... to the boards, the "add" link in posts doesn't work for most of us, because apparently it creates a pop-up and sensible people turn pop-ups off.

Look at the top of the thread and you'll see the purple Reply button. Click that and a box will open for composing a post.

Now, isn't that how *you* would have designed the system??

User-friendly, not. Advertiser-friendly, for sure. If you want to know how to get rid of the adverts, I can tell you that too. ;)

Gemma says:


It is the purple reply button i am trying to use!
Ive just turned pop-ups on and tried via the "add" button as well, but that doesnt seem to be working either!

BTW the 1851 image actually does look like Paynter (or Paymter), but no i havent been able to trace this family on the 1841.


I dunno! Have you got NoScript on, in Firefox? You have to turn that off -- allow script at this site -- I think. I've enabled most of the script for the page, except one thing. Did it one by one until what I needed worked.

Me, I'm on slow-speed while awaiting a new modem, which is why I didn't check the image. ;)

Anyhow -- I'd go ahead and get the Joseph Monksfield and Emma Poyton marriage certificate. It may tell all.

Of course, if Emma was born to unmarried parents, it may tell nothing. ;)

My hypothesis would be that Emma was a granddaughter of Esther Lyons, and possibly that Susannah was Susannah Lyons. But where she was in 1841, that's a mystery.

Here's something maybe interesting in 1841.

Name: Esther Poynter
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex

It actually seems to say (I did look at the image, because she appears alone at Ancestry with no household) that she is 5 years old and is a laundress. Oh my.

She's attached to this household:

James Upcraft 40 - I think it says Ind
Hannah Upcraft 35
Charlotte Upcraft 2
Mary Cox 1

The surrounding households seem to be prosperous middle class.

A few days later and one updated internet explorer and i can finally update this post!

I have a new theory that i would love some input on:

1851 Census:
Esther Lyons (Head) has a Matilda Woodford living with her, apparently her daughter (plus James Woodford, Matilda's husband and son, also James.)
Tracing a Matilda Lyons and Woodford Marriage i drew a blank. BUT i did come across the following:
Susannah Rolt & James William Woodford, married 1848 Bethnal Green.

Now, on the 1841 census Esther Lyons is living with some Rolts...one of these is Susan Rolt (age 11)

....If Susan Rolt is the same Susannah Rolt that married James William Woodford, could Esther Lyons be her mother?

Next stop...Parish records and the birth of a Susannah Rolt (18-02-1831) to parents Samuel Rolt and Esther (looking hopeful!)

Looking up Samuel Rolts Marriage on familysearch i find:
Samuel Rolt married Hester Venele 29-07-1809, Shoreditch

....Hester could be Esther?

Also, on Pallots Marriage index i found:
Esther Rolt Married John Lions 1834, St John Hackney.

....So if Hester/Esther Venele is the mother of Susannah Rolt (aka Matilda?) could Emma Poyton's mother also be a child of Hester/Esther and Samuel Rolt?

Checking for Rolt and Poyton Marraiges there is one:
James Poyton and Ann Rolt, March 1867 Bethnal Green.

....Much later than i would have expected, but it does fit with theparents names for Emma Poyton IGI record that EvieBeavie found.

I did a bit of digging and came up with some census records for Emma Poyton that i believe are more accurate (see next post)
I think the 1851 Paynter Census is a bit of a red hearing!

Continued....

Ok, the Census records:

1861:
Name: James Poyton
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1812
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Gren, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Bethnal Green St Matthew
Ecclesiastical parish: St James the Less
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub registration district: Green
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 228
Household Members: Name Age
James Poyton 49
Ann Poyton 47
Esther Poyton 15
Susannah Poyton 12
James Poyton 2

1841:
James Payton (30)
Ann Payton (25)
James Payton (3)
William Payton (1)
Whitechapel

1851:
James Bayton (39)
Ann Bayton (37)
Emma Bayton (15)
James Bayton (12)
Eliza Bayton (5)
Susannah Bayton (3)
Bethnal Green

1871:
James Peyton (54)
Ann Peyton (57)
James Peyton (12)
Bethnal Green


1881:
James Payton (77)
Ann Payton (67)
275 Green Street, Bethnal Green

Also i found two more IGI births with parents James Poyton and Ann:
William Poyton 12-10-1840
James Poyton 29-07-1838

This all seems to fit so well, except the Rolt/Poyton marriage takes place in 1867, after approx 6 children have been born?

One set of my grx2 grparents married in 1872, 7 years after their last child, my gr-grmother was born, and after appearing together with children in 1851.

I have always assumed there was a pre-existing marriage on one side, and the existing spouse finally died. Never been able to find a marriage (which would have had to be after 1837, as they were born 1825ish) or death to fit. But it's the only reasonable explanation. Sounds like you have the same situation.

I've figured the marriage was on the husband's side in my case since the wife married under her birth surname. Both declared unmarried, but then who trusts ancestors?

You could get that certificate and see whether yours were more accurate in their declarations. ;)

Having to rush just now so can't pay proper attention, but your reasoning looks sound to me at a glance.

re what I said earlier --

I had thought maybe Lyons was Esther's name by a second marriage, but that would be backwards for the 1841 -- the older children are Lyons and Emma is Paylor (or whatever it actually says; I haven't checked the image).

-- well duh, the older children could be stepchildren, her second husband's; and yes, Emma a grandchild.

Thanks for your input Evie.
I had wondered whether Ann Rolt and James Poyton had married prior to the birth of their first child, perhaps eloping due to family disappoval and then remaried later with family present. I cant find an earlier mariage to confirm this though.

You were very close with your theory in earlier post, but like you i dismissed that because of the older children being Lyons and the younger ones Rolts.
I wish people in 1841 had realised we would want to see how people in a household were related years later!

How about this for a prior marriage?

JAMES EBENEZER POYTON
Spouse: ELIZABETH JANE DAVISS
Marriage: 14 MAR 1835 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England
Batch No.: M046986


I have't tried tracking them around censuses, but the IGI doesn't show any births to that couple.

A death?

Deaths Mar 1861
Poyton Elizabeth Jane Bethnal Gn 1c 237

Yeah, well, it was one of those nice theories. ;)


1851

Name: James Poyton
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Bethnal Green

James Poyton 40
Elizabeth Poyton 41
Elizabeth Poyton 14
James Poyton 12
William Poyton 6
Mary Ann Poyton 5

A nice theory for a minute or two!
I had actually already come across that Poyton family in my search for James and Ann...i thought the James's were the same person until i found two of them on one census!

Possible birth for James:
Birth: 18 APR 1811
Christening: 05 MAY 1811 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England

Parents: John Poyton & Sarah.

(This isnt James Ebenezer Poyton as i found his birth with the middle name as well.)