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Thanks mgnv,

I had noticed the column where generally the minister etc places his details, I am assuming this is what you are referring to? I realise people lived together then as they do now, I just thought when it came to official papers etc they would use names of a marriage or birth. I am aware of irregular marriages in Scotland's history, however not coming from that country myself I am reluctant to make judgements just based on what I have read in books about the subject, I would rather ask and see what the general feeling from other's experiences have been.

Sorry I am a bit unclear on what you are pointing out with the first name? I didn't have a query with a given name, only a surname, and I think Evie sorted it out and headed me in the right direction.

Re some points that have been raised.

Just about the only time you can't call your vhild whatever you like is when you're registering their birth. You are restricted in the surname to using the mother's current name, unless the father is present, when you can use his surname too (but you do get both). Regarding forenames, the registrar general of New Zealand complained he had very little power to disallow names. He could refuse names that would cause offense to a reasonable person, that are more than 100 charcters or that include titles, military ranks, punctuation or numerals. Names rejected by the office included Fish and Chips, Yeah Detroit, Stallion, Keenan Got Lucy, and Sex Fruit. He got interviwed following a custody battle between a NZ couple in Sydney, NSW, where the judge placed their daughter Talula Does the Hula From Hawaii in the guardianship of the court until she was renamed.
[Vancouver Sun article 25/7/2008 p A8]

There are also significant differences in registration requirements between England and Scotland. In Scotland, birth registration was always compulsory. I have seen estimates somewhere that there was a non-compliance rate of up to 25% in 1855q1, but this soon fell, and was essentially complete within a couple of years. On the otherhand, registering a marriage was not required. In England, for a legal marriage, the registrar or an approved priest or rabbi would officiate, so this wasn't really a problem. However, in Scotland, this was only the case in so-called regular marriages. In an irregular marriage, anyone (or even nobody) would officiate, so long as the forms were observed (the classic example is the blacksmith's weddings ar Gretna Green). Also, marriage by cohabitation and repute (what would be called a common-law marriage in England) was a legal way to contract matrimony in Scotland.
The former ceased to be legal 1929ish and the latter 2006. Registration rates for irregular marriages were generally thought to be very low.

There is an example of a Scottish marriage register page at:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=554&403
Had you ever wondered about (or even noticed) the heading for the penultimate column?

HI Evie,

Sorry to hear about your mother, what a terrible thing for her to go through!

I did think that may have happened to Catherine when you looked up that Dr Knight. I can well imagin eit happening! It struck me as unusual that Catherine was very definate on the certificate that her husband David Marshall was not the father and that she had not seen him for two years. He divorced her and then remarried at a later date. I do not know the grounds for the divorce, is there a way this can be looked up?

Minnie, Sorry the Hartwood Asylum is in or was in I should say, Schotts, Lanark.

The next mystery is SP shows no record of a Robina Smith birth in the right year!

Thanks again!

So if you combine SP and Ancestry you might get the magic formula. ;)

I had thought SP might be more accurate - it was in Martha's case, fortunately. The problem with using SP is you don't get fuzzy results as easily - and you have to pay per view - whereas with Ancestry you can muddle around to your heart's content and see what comes out without having to pay for stuff that turns out to be useless.

If SP would offer subscriptions, and Ancestry would hire (and train and pay) competent people ... life would be beautiful.

Hi,

The two census returns 1891 & 1901 look to be correct for Catherine thank you once again.

In my own defence because I can assure you Evie I had spent quite some time looking for Ctaherine, if you perform a search for Catherine Bingham in 1891 on SP NOT Ancestry the only one that comes up is a Catherine Bingham aged 4. I assume this is obviously a problem with SP as she is clearly listed on the census. I also did search for a Martha Smith but it was a very popular name as the time as is Robert Smith!

Thanks all.

Oops, you saw that Gardyne one before I deleted it. That was an excess of zeal; she is obviously the one I did put up, the one with Robert Smith and Martha and Robina.

When I said that about Kinght/Knight it was Ancestry I was dissing -- one of their no doubt hightly trained, well-paid transcribers typed the name wrong. Of course it's Knight, but because of Ancestry's sloppiness I hadn't been able to find her as such! You were looking at the census at SP, which didn't make that error.

I asked about the "S" because I didn't know anything about that Elizabeth and wondered whether the "S" was indeed Smith, and whether the census image would show it. It's useful to know it's a family name -- so it's equally likely that's the reason for Martha having it as that she had it through Robert.

I'm not sure whether I was too delicate. With Martha being called Knight, I wondered whether Catherine might have been in the asylum and been a victim of sexual exploitation by a doctor. It unquestionably happened. (My mum was sexually assaulted by her doctor a lot more recently than that, although not as blatantly as that would have been.)

I would doubt that if Catherine and Robert were a couple they ever married. Do you know the grounds of her divorce -- was she the one divorcing or being divorced? You did see in the 1901 that they were no longer together -- you don't doubt that's her in the 1901? Perhaps Robert died before her divorce.

Oh, and - no, I can't imagine anyone cross-checking records to verify a name at death. Her death would have been reported under whatever name she was admitted to hospital under, and that would be whatever she or whoever admitted her told the hospital at the time. One's name was whatever one called one's self!

Shotte.is where, please?

Thank you for your replies...

I have the image of the 1881 census and the surname could be Knight or Kinght. The handrwiting is unclear. Although why the difefring surname than that shown on her birth certificate? Apologies I had said that I had this census in my opening message, but had not been able to locate her after this date.

I have Catherine on the 1871 census, and then on the 1881 census. All I can see is that she had a number of children with her husband David, but the majority of them seemed to always have lived with the paternal grandparents in Mount Street, Montrose until they married or died.

Minnie, Catherine died at the Hartwood Asylum in Shotte. Does this help?

I would not know is she had been an inmate before, I don't know how to track that kind of information down. Does anyone know this?

Evie Catherine was not divorced until 1894 so I had not realised she'd be calling herself Catherine Smith before this, but if she is with the Gardyne's that's the right person or the one you found after that could also be correct!

Yep Evie I knew that Martha's middle name was Smith as I said that in my opening message. The S in the middle of Elizabeth's name in the 1871 census is also Smith which just to complicate things is also a family name, the Smith being the maiden name of Elizabeth's paternal grandma!

Thanks Evie, the message thread about Alexander Marshall isn't one of mine I had looked at that previously but the dates and names don't fit. Funny timing coincidence though!

Thanks all, I'll go and see what I can see from the census info you kindly supplied!

Cheers

Rachelle

1871?

Name: Catherine Marshall
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : David
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Name: David Marshall
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Logieheart, Forfarshire
Occupation: Ship Carpenter

Registration Number: 644/8
Registration district: Anderston
Civil Parish: Glasgow Barony
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 3 Dock Street

David Marshall 25
Catherine Marshall 23
Elizabeth S Marshall 1 - born Glasgow
David Watson 25 - lodger
William Marshall 22 - lodger - same birthplace as David


Does the image at SP show what the middle initial for Elizabeth stands for?

(You know that Martha's middle name was Smith and Ancestry just says S.)

R - have a look at this coincidental thread which was just below yours:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1147889

I've seen Scottish censuses where "wife" is listed with a different surname from husband. Don't know whether it means they weren't married in every case or not.

can we ask which assylum she died in?

I never bother with those source citation thingies. ;)


1901

Name: Catharine Smith
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 282/3
Registration district: St Clement
Civil Parish: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: No 18 Hospital Wynd - ?
Occupation: Jute Spinner

Catharine Smith 53
Martha Smith 20
Robina Smith 16

hold on, got the wrong one.

1891

Source Citation: Parish: Inverkeithing; ED: 3; Page: 5; Line: 20; Roll: CSSCT1891_132; Year: 1891.


snap

Where you bin looking, Rachelle??

1891

Name: Martha Smith
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Father's Name: Robert
Gender: Female
Where born: Montrose, Forfarshire

Name: Catherine Bingham
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relationship: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Registration Number: 432
Registration district: Inverkeithing
Civil Parish: Inverkeithing
Town: Inverkeithing
County: Fife
Address: Alma St

Robert Smith 60 - born England, plate layer (i.e. railway)
Catherine Bingham 39
Martha Smith 10
Robina Smith 6

Here I'd thought it would be easier to find Catherine Marshall or Martha Knight in 1881 than Robert Smith!

Ancestry can probably mistranscribe "Robert Smith", but this time they managed not to. ;)

1891

Name: Catherine Smith
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relationship: Boarder
Where born: Ireland, Dublin
Registration Number: 312
Registration district: Montrose
Civil Parish: Montrose
County: Angus
Address: Rosebank House

Elizabeth Gardyne 20
Mary A S Gardyne 26
Jane Alexander 65
Catherine Smith 48

?

edit - Scratch! - see below

Thank Evie - I wa getting cranky cos I couldnt find her

Phew. Just to spare anyone else the Ancestry misery:

Robert Smith 50 - railway labourer
James Smith 10
Frank Smith 4
Cathrine Marshall 34
Martha S Kinght 1 Mo


Silly me, I was searching for Martha Knight (and Catherine Marshall).


Is there any chance that Catherine had been in the asylum before that time?


Name: John B Knight
Age: 63
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Where born: Edinburgh, Edinburghshire
Registration district: Montrose
> Civil Parish: Montrose
County: Angus
Address: Sunnyside
Occupation: Doctor Of Medicine
> ED: Royal Lunatic Asylum Of Montrose


Also keep in mind that if she were in the asylum in 1891 and 1901, she might appear in the census only by initials.