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Hello, my gt gt uncle John 'Buck' Williams was, according to family legend, a war hero, and was mentioned in despatches. He joined up as a bugle boy in 1906 aged 14 (regiment not known), although I am unable to find his birth certificate, and his entry in the 1901.

I have found the family in 1891 in North Ormesby, Middlesbrough (father William Thomas Williams, mother Emma/Emily, sons John and Walter Louis). Whether my uncle Buck is the toddler John shown with the family in 1891, or a younger son born after the death of the elder, is not yet known.

From this, I have found from the Middlesbrough Electoral Register for 1918 the following:

John Williams, 3 Florence Street, 38597, Private, A.S.C.M.T

It is known that in later life (1940s/1950s) John lived in Florence Street, so I am hoping this is the same John Williams as my relation, who was living there in 1918.

So, is there anyway of validating the stories of this man, and to see what they were and if they were true.

Best wishes,

Peter

There's an article about him here from the Evening Gazette, Middlesbrough:

http://www.lindahome.co.uk/Quoits1/johnbuckwilliams.html

Update: OOPS! Just noticed the article is donated by you!!!

Thank you Margaret; I had sent that article to Linda as I am looking for the elusive photograph mentioned in the article. It is certainly not in the family now. I think I should put an advert in the Gazette for contact information for Eddie Lewis.

Peter,
Have you gone through his service records on Ancestry?
I can never make sense of what I'm reading on those,but the following records both seem to be the same person:
British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: John Williams
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Age at Enlistment: 21
Birth Parish: North Ormesby
Birth County: Yorkshire
Document Year: 1910
Regiment Name: Res Bn Yorkshire Reg??
Number of Images: 10

Name: John Williams
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Age at Enlistment: 21
Birth Parish: North Ormesby
Birth County: Yorkshire
Document Year: 1907
Regiment Name: Res Bn Yorkshire Re??
Number of Images: 33

I'm fairly sure he's "yours".

Perhaps someone with more expertise could read tthrough and see what they can glean from them.


Maureen

I wonder if you can contact Bucks old regiment. Im sure if he was mentioned in dispatches they would be able to help.

I have never heard of Princess Patricia's Yorkshire Own Regiment ( From Evening Gazette story)
There is The Green Howards ( Alexandra,Princess of Wales Own Yorkshire Regiment)

There is Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry that fought in WW1.
I wonder if Buck fought along side these so the story has got muddled.

A.S.C.M.T stands for Army Service Corp Mechanical Transport

I was born in Middlesbrough and lived in North Ormesby when I first got married

Just an aside-no wonder you couldn't find them in 1901!!!
1901 Ancestry
Name: William Threadwell
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma
Gender: Male
Where born: North Ormsby, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Middlesbrough
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address: Can't read

Occupation:
Registration district: Middlesbrough
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Household schedule number: 103
Household Members:
Name Age
William Threadwell 29 Occ:Lab Steel Works
Emma Threadwell 26
John Threadwell 10
Walter Threadwell 7
Rosey Threadwell 3
Albert E Threadwell 1
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4576; Folio: 156; Page: 17
...............
1911 census transcription details for: 87 Hatherley Street Middlesbrough Yorkshire
RG14PN29282 RG78PN1696 RD535 SD3 ED19 SN281

Reg. District: Middlesbrough Sub District: Middlesbrough West
Parish: Middlesbrough Enum. District: 19
Address: 87 Hatherley Street Middlesbrough Yorkshire
County: Yorkshire (North riding)

WILLIAMS, William Thomas Head M 39 1872 Gas Worker North Ormesby
WILLIAMS, Emma Wife Married
21 years F 39 1872 Middlesbrough
WILLIAMS, Walter Louis Son Single M 19 1892 General Labourer North Ormesby
WILLIAMS, Rosey Daughter Single F 13 1898 School Middlesbrough
WILLIAMS, Albert Son Single M 12 1899 School Middlesbrough
WILLIAMS, George Son Single M 5 1906 Middlesbrough
WILLIAMS, Harry Son Single M 3 1908 Middlesbrough


Maureen

Ok

I'm skimming through the records for the John Williams b. 1886


the records are not in very good shape .......... burnt and fragments of pages in many cases.

I have not found a name of a next-of-kin at any time.

He qualified as a boilermaker while in the army.

Was discharged with a 30% pension in 1919 ...... he had rheumatism and bronchitis


The address given on that page was 3 Florence Street, Middlesborough, Yorkshire, and he says he is Married.

Number 38597
Reserve (2nd) battalion, Yorkshire Regiment (19th Foot)
Attested 1-2-1910

Transferred to Army Service Corp M. T.
(??date?? 1916??)


A second address of 6 Argyle (???) St Middlesborouhg is also given later on a burnt fragment ..... address where he will be while on leave.


sylvia

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: John Williams
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Age at Enlistment: 21
Birth Parish: North Ormesby
Birth County: Yorkshire
Document Year: 1910
Regiment Name: Res Bn Yorkshire Reg??
Number of Images: 10



3rd Reserve Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

Attested 1 February 1910


Think his physical description identical ot that for the previously posted John Williams, b. 1886 ... including distinguishing marks on body ........ but need to double check!

Transferred to Army Service Corp 1915(?)


Nexto of Kin
Father William William 14 Hartington Street, Middlesboro
Brother ?? William
Brother Walter William

Wife 7 Stansfield St, Middlesboro
Mary Anne Lewis, Married 14/2 1911

Child
John Patrick William b. 1/9/1913, Middlesboro


I cannot see a service number for hime

He was awarded the British War Medal and the Victory Medal ..... which were given to every soldier who served



need to check the other guys records ....... but have to go for dinner!!




sylvia

You have more patience than I do,Sylvia!!

I think I saw his number as 7194,which matches up to this one:
British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 about John Williams
Name: John Williams
Regiment or Corps: York R,Army Service Corps
Regimental Number: 7194,M/38597

Maureen

Wonder why the name was Threadwell in 1901? This seems to be the same family:
1891 census
19 Pennyman St., Ormesby, Middlesbrough, Yorkshire
W.T. Williams, head, 20, (something?) maker iron works, born North Ormesby
Emma, wife, 19, born Middlesbrough
John, son, 2, born Linthorpe
Walter L., son, 6 months, born North Ormesby

Incidentally I was born in Middlesbrough too.

Oh rats! Just re-read your post, you already had this. I'm batting zero tonight, better retire!

Possible marriage? From Tees Valley Indexes:

Result Year Surname Forename Initial Ref Number Click to contact
1 1889 HEATHCOCK EMILY M-AA-J24-0-0177 Middlesbrough
2 1889 WILLIAMS WILLIAM T M-AA-J24-0-0177 Middlesbrough

John is 2 in 1891 so this must be his birth:

Births Mar 1889
Heathcock John Middlesbro' 9d 509

Rose

John's marriage?

Marriages Mar 1911
Lewis Mary A Middlesbro 9d 808
Williams John Middlesbro 9d 809

Rose

Next of Kin
Father: William Williams 14 Hartington Street, Middlesboro
Mother: Emma Williams
Brother: Walter Williams
Wife: 7 Stansfield St

Served in Italy and Kefalonica

Height: 5 ft 7 in

weight: 137 lbs
Rose

The newspaper article says he lived with his sister Mary and son John?

That seems odd as there' s no Mary listed in the census records. Those are the names of his wife and child.

Rose

Yes

the physical descriptions are identical ........... poor guy was slightly knock kneed and flat footed!


so they are two sets of records for one person ....... probably as a result of him being transferred from the Yorskhire Regiment.



I don't think the British War Medal and the Victory Medal really qualify him as a war hero in the usual sense of the word ........... every British soldier who served for the duration and/or overseas got them.

Although every Tommy should be thought of as war hero imo!


sylvia

According to the Medal Card, he was awarded the

British War Medal

Victory Medal

1915 Star


York Regiment Service Number 7194
Army Service Corp Number M/38597


Medal information:-


1914-15 Star was awarded for service in France or Flanders (Belgium) between 23 November 1914 and 31 December 1915, or for service in any theater between 5 August 1914 and 31 December 1915


Allied Victory Medal (Victory Medal) was awarded for service in any operational theater between 5 August 1914 and 11 November 1918. It was issued to individuals who received the 1914 and 1914-15 Stars and to most individuals who were issued the British War Medal. The medal was also awarded for service in Russia (1919-1920) and post-war mine clearance in the North Sea (1918-1919).


British War Medal was awarded to both servicemen and civilians that either served in a theater of war, or rendered service overseas between 5 August 1914 and 11 November 1918. It was also awarded for service in Russia, and post-war mine clearance in the Baltic, the Black Sea, and the Caspian Sea between 1919 and 1920.



sylvia

Wow! Thank you, thank you and thank you again! You have solved so many problems for me tonight!

Firstly the 1901 - how on earth did you find my family there?! I have looked and looked and looked, and put COUNTLESS requests for the family on here, but to no avail! I have literally been looking for the family since the release in 1901 ... I wonder why Tweedle?! Perhaps clerickal error, or perhaps a lie?!

Thank you for the 1891 and 1911; I have both of these. Sadly the 1911 shows William and Emma had 12 children; but only five surviving. Obviously Williams is a very common name; does anyone have plans of finding the births and deaths of these seven children?

On top of this I have looked for John 'Buck' Williams' birth certificate for ages; I had the thought the toddler in 1891 had died and perhaps a baby born in 1892 was named after him ... however, your theory that he was illegitimate explains why I couldn't find him. I had looked for a baptism in Teesside Archives thinking he may not have been registered. I also looked in the Workhouse birth records thinking Emma and William may have been destitute, but of course I was looking for Williams NOT Heathcock! Ha! Thank you! The workhouse was in Linthorpe so I assume he was born there!

Oddly I posted this request last night and I have spent some time in the library today (before reading these posts) and I had found the two John Williams military records on ancestry ... I knew one was related through the next of kin information ... parents details and 69 Argyle Street! It was the family home until a bomb attack in October 1940! Now you have supplied me with the next-of-kin of John and his family. However, I didn't know that both documents related to my relation! Thank you! I am so glad with this!

Quite a while ago I had requested to buy the 1911 marriage certificate of John Williams and Mary Lewis , but the registrar said the groom's father was not William Thomas Williams ... I wonder why! I shall call them again with this new info tommorrow! Also, thank you for noticing the point of John Williams, and is sister Mary ... this was noted as a mistake in a later Edition of the magazine where the article was originally published! John and Mary were husband and wife.

From this, does anyone have any suggestions of how I may find the photo mentioned in the article of William Thomas Williams, father of Buck Williams? A search of the internet proves not much help ... any ideas? I would love to find this pic.

Whilst at the library I also found the service records of Walter Williams, who died in September 1916 - he was John's brother. So sad. A lot of information there though too. Thank you so much again. I'm glad I could confirm this information with you, and thank you for the quick reply. Good to hear of the Middlesbrough connections also!

THANK YOU AGAIN! Best wishes

Also, how poignant to find out all of this today! Thank you again

Hello Peter,

Sometimes it's best not to list too much information when requesting certificates. If you listed William Thomas Williams as the father and it was William Williams on the certificate they might be reason for them not to send it.

Rose