Find Ancestors

Just a note

I didn't ask "why did [you] not continue with this"

I asked

"why did you not just continue it so that people would not repeat the efforts made there, as they are likely doing?"

i.e. why not continue the existing thread with info in it, *as compared to starting a new thread*.

Just for clarification. I was certainly not demanding an explanation for why someone didn't pursue a search!

Perhaps you would be better phoning Gro Southport and just giving them the names and area and roughly year.That is what i did when i first started .They do a 2/3 year search either side of the year you give them.

I have a birth certificate for Elizabeth - Franks sister. This states she was registered in Tottenham - Pancras. I did try for a birth certificate for this area for Frank/Frances and then informed no match.
I do not think they moved into the area just before 1871 as the older sister Mary Ann states she was born in Pancras. I cannot find Mary Ann's birth certificate. I can find Martha's baptism records, they are registered with the father and mother of Frank, John James was baptised twice, once with his mother Mary Ann Wybrow and his father Michael Cole, then again with Michael Cole and 2nd wife Elizabeth Nicholas. I was informed the church paid money if the children was baptised. I think this family was very poor.
Is there any way I can get army information on Frank/Frances - my grand father without knowing the correct date of birth? I do not know any army referene numbers. I was informed he was a cook and maybe he was in the Black Watch as he always wore a kilt. I have details of his address when he on the 1911 census list and I have a copy of his marriage certificate, I also know what address he was living in during the 1920's. Is there any one who can help me please locate this information. Thank you.

Christine
Thank you for your replies on the thread here.

I agree with Choccy that the age given for Francis on the 1871 census (as posted by Ellieathome) is probably the most accurate record of Francis's age as it is closest to his birth. I am sure people have very different reasons to justify the inaccurancies in their stated ages. (I just found one yesterday where the bride waited 10 years before having her age corrected on her marriage certificate - and she was only 2 years older than she had stated at the time!!) Perhaps you are giving the GRO too much information when you apply for the birth certificates and they are looking to match all the criteria that you provide.

The other think is of course that although the family were in St. Pancreas are when the 1871 census was taken it may be that they had just moved into the area. Have you found the birth record for John, the second youngest on that 1871 census?

Hope you make a speedy recovery and feel up to getting on with your research.

Message to Janey Canuck
Thank you for the reply to my email and for the advice on how to follow the link. I was not aware how to do this, yes I agree with you I should have entered this information on this site so that people could read what information I have already received. If I had perhaps emailed someone for advice on how to do this, then I would have known, I can only say sorry to all those people who have taken the time to reply to me for not doing this. I am now aware that I must do this. Thank you for pointing this out to me.
As for your other question "why did I not continue with this". I have been very ill. I have had breast cancer, so I think the tracing of Frank and doing my family tree did not play on my mind so much. I have also been in hospital with a herina and trapped bowl, just before Christmas, they had to cut 5 inches of my bowl away. I came out of hospital the day before Christmas Eve. I have now got to recover and have time off work and because I cannot do much I am on the internet doing my research again. I thank you for your interest and thank you for the reply getting back to me. Your help on follow up details will be saved in case I need them for the future.

Message for ellieathome
It is very good of you to send me further information, thank you again.
The reference you have quoted regarding Michael and Elizabeth is the Baptism records. Elizabeth Nicholas is Michael's 2nd wife, he married her a year after Mary Ann Wybrow died. I understand on the day of this Baptism they Baptised a lot of the children, one child was baptised twice, they changed the names round slightly, James John is baptised with Micheal and Elizabeth, but you will read that Mary Ann and Michael Baptised him together but under the names of John James. I later found out the church would give money to you if you had your child baptised, and I think this is the reason Michael and Elizabeth had all these children Baptised together. I applied for a birth certificate for the date they stated on this baptism and sadly it came back incorrect match. The dates of the 1871 census list shows Francis Cole son 3 months. The dates on children on the 1881 census birth dates do not match. The 1911 census of Frank with his wife Annie (the age is only stated) does not work out to to any of the census. The marriage certificate he has only stated an age, the dates do not match any of the information I have found. After applying for six different birth cettiicates all different dates and years I have still not got a result. This is why I think the birth was not regisitered. I am trying to locate army reference details, hoping to get some kind of information so I have some back ground knowledge of my grand father. Is it possible to get information on his army records by looking up his wife details, when they have paid her a pension? Please could you kindly avise me if you know the answer? Thank you for all your time and help.

MESSAGE FOR ROOTGETHERER
Thank you for the reply.
I follwed information for Michael Cole - Franks father - found the marriage certificate, looked at census lists showing Franks sisters and then found the name Francis entered on the bottom of the 1871 census. This is how I found out that Frank's mother is Mary Ann Wybrow. If you think I have got the wrong information please could you kindly advise me and advise me what root I should have taken, thank you for your help.

Message for ellieathome.
Thank you for forwarding the information on Frank regarding his marriage details. I did have this information but thank you again for forwarding this to me. The information stated on this marriage certificate shows that Franks father was Michael Cole. Sadly Frank has not stated his date of birth, he has just entered a age, the age does not match up with birth references I can trace. I have tried for many birth certificates and they all come back with not a correct match. If I could trace the correct birth details I would be able to get the army records which I would love to read. I have address that Frank lived at in 1911 but I do not know if I would be able to get information from the War office just by giving details of this address. Do you happen to know please?
Thank you for taking the time to try to help me.

MESSAGE FOR CHRISTINA.
Thank you for the reply concerning Frank and maybe he was registered Under Frank Wybrow,?
You stated Camberwell, I am not sure what area this comes under, would it be part of Saint Pancras? On the census sheets I can see for Frank/ Francis it states born in Saint Pancras. On his marriage certificate he has also stated Saint Pancras. The other thing that confusing is 1871 census list showing Borough Marylebone Saint Pancras - Michael Coles - Head - Wife Mary Ann - ect., last person stated is Francis Coles son 3 months.So this wouldn't match the reference you kindly quoted me??It must be the same mother and father as the information fits in with census list 1861. Another confusing thing - 1881 census list childrens ages do not match???
Is it normal for the mother to enter her surname on the birth reference, if she was married to the father?
Thank you for this reply.

Frank Cole
Year of Registration: 1903
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: St Pancras (1902-1977)
County: Greater London, London
Volume: 1b
Page: 61 (click to see others on page)

Name: Annie Collins
Year of Registration: 1903
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: St Pancras (1902-1977)
County: Greater London, London
Volume: 1b
Page: 61 (click to see others on page

Name: Michael Cole
Year of Registration: 1879
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Marylebone (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 1000 (click to see others on page)

Name: Elizabeth Nicholas
Year of Registration: 1879
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Marylebone (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 1000 (click to see others on page)

Blossom in Essex
The shoreditch one is born after the 1871 census.

think Henry Francis Cole born Bethnal Green can be eliminated - this is probably him -


1871 England Census
Name: Henry F Cole
Age: 3 months
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Abraham
Mother's Name: Martha
Gender: Male
Where born: B Green, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Household schedule number: 302
Household Members: Name Age
Abraham Cole 30
Martha Cole 23
William J Cole 3
Henry F Cole 3 months *******




Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 489; Folio: 28; Page: 50; GSU roll: 823374.

Or what about this one:

Births Jun 1871 (>99%)
COLE Frank Shoreditch 1c 143 Scan available - click to view

I agree with Choccy - he must have been born end 1870, beginning of 1871. Could Francis his second name? Possible:

COLE Henry Francis Bethnal Green 1c 283 Scan available - click to view

When did Mary Ann Cole die?

Is this her death?


Deaths Mar 1871 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cole Mary Ann 38 Bethnal Green 1c 232



If the 1871 census is correct, Francis is 3 months old.


In other census returns I can understand why births may be 'years out', but with a 3 month old baby, this is likely to be correct and only 'weeks out', which means he was probably born late 1870 or early 1871.


If Mary Ann died in Bethnal Green district, child is quite 'likely' to have been born in Bethnal Green district.


(just putting thoughts into words!)

I think you should be looking for a Francis Cole/Coles birth.

"Last year I asked for help to trace my grand father "

So where is that thread now, and why did you not just continue it so that people would not repeat the efforts made there, as they are likely doing?


edit -- Ah, I see -- "Please read the information on my thread contact from last year Set., Oct., 2009 ."

Well, no one knows where that is. You should give the thread number, e.g. this one is

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1198191

1871Name: Francis Coles
Age: 3 months
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Michael
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Tottenham Court
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 167
Household Members: Name Age
Michael Coles 38
Mary Ann Coles 37
Elizabeth Coles 14
Mary Ann Coles 7
Eliza Coles 5
John Coles 2
Francis Coles 3 months


View
Original
Record

View original image

1881 for refereName: Francis Cole
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Michael
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Pancras
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 9 Upper Gower Mews
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Tottenham Court
ED, institution, or vessel: 10b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Michael Cole 47
Elizabeth Cole 46
John Cole 16
Francis Cole 14
Charles Cole

nce
This your Frank,Francis ?