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Thanks to "Sue in Leeds" I was able to get somewhere in searching for my Grf, Albert Webb who she discovered in the 1920 electorals was living with a couple called Dudding in R/Ham, Yorks, I then found him with an Elizabeth Dudding (mother born c 1865 Clee Hills, Shropshire) in Manchester 1901 census, aged 6yrs two siblings both older than Albert. I sent after the birth certificate expecting to see that his father's name was Thomas (name on marriage cert - deceased.) but to my amasement it says John Webb..!! However occupation was the same Tailor (Journeyman). Mother's name Elizabeth nee Lucas. I have searched and searched through the census records and BMD for some trace of "John" Thomas and Elizabeth but without success. Elizabeth married James Dudding in 1903 but was already calling herself Dudding in 1901. This is driving me mad. Where do I go from here...??
Thankfull for any tips...Jean

1901, for reference:

DUDDING, Elizabeth Head Married F 36 1865 Refreshment (Fried Fish Etc Caterer) Clee Hills Shropshire
WEBB, Ernest Son M 12 1889 Clee Hills Shropshire
WEBB, May Daughter F 8 1893 Manchester Lancashire
WEBB, Albert Son M 6 1895 Manchester Lancashire
CROWTHER, Alfred Boarder Single M 20 1881 Cotton Spinner Piecer Manchester Lancashire

Registration District: Chorlton Sub District: Ardwick
Enumeration District: 28 Ecclesiastical Parish: Ardwick St Silas

Civil Parish: South Manchester Municipal Borough:
Address: 14, Albany Street, South Manchester County: Lancashire

Hi Marie Celeste,
My granda Albert died in 1973 at R/Ham on the register his name is Albert Edward and dob 11 April, 1895. An elderly relative believes that he came from the manchester area so that would tie in with the Dudding connection.
Jean

Census 1911:

DUDDING, James Head Married M 60 1851 Electrician Retired Yorks York City .
DUDDING, Elizabeth Wife Married 9 years F 46 1865 Salop Clee Hill .
DUDDING, Jessie Mcmillan Granddaughter Single F 5 1906 Lancs Horwich .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registration District:
Bolton Sub District:
Horwich Enumeration District:
5 Parish:
Horwich

Address:
5 Fairbairn St Horwich County:
Lancashire

Kucinta,

I have traced James Dudding all the way back to his childhood in York and through to 1911. 1901 census Elizabeth said she was married and gave her surname as Dudding it's very confusing as they weren't married until 1903, besides that in the 1901 census for Horwich, Lancs. James was living with his son Arthur at 15 Ramsbottom Rd.
I tried using the "Dudding" connection in my search for clarity in the Webb family mystery, where was Albert and his siblings father at this time.

Regards
Jean

I notice Elizabeth gave her surname as Webb when she married James Dudding, but so far I can't find the marriage of an Elizabeth Lucas to a Mr Webb.

1891 England Census
about Ernest Webb
Name: Ernest Webb
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1889
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Bitterley B Anael Bank

Civil Parish: Bitterley
Ecclesiastical parish: Bitterley
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Ludlow
Sub-registration district: Cainham
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Webb 59
Rosa Ann Webb 53
Alfred Webb 20
Harriet Webb 15
William Webb 4
Ernest Webb 2

Kucinta, neither can I................frustrating...!!!

Helen, I have even tried to find William age 4yrs birth registration and by working backwards find a marriage date for Elizabeth and Thomas (John) without any luck...I did however find a Thomas Webb born 1873 Coreley, Shropshire in the 1881 census, but as usual I didn't get any further than that..!! He didn't appear to be the right one.

Jean

Kucinta,
Actually I found one using FindmyPast's new marriage page. However they were married in Lancs and if I remember correctly the year was 1843..? long before Elizabeth was born. I've tried just about everything...............................But I'm not giving in..!!!
Jean

To those out there who are trying to help me I must apologise with all my heart. The door bell just rang and we have got a suprise visit from some of our family.....I'm so sorry but I have to go from my computer and close down for this evening or at least for some hours depending on how long they decide to stay..
Please forgive me for this interuption...I'll be back as soon as I can..!!

Thank you so much for your patience......Jean

In 1891 Elizabeth Webb, a 29 yr old widow born c1862 Cleehill Shropshire, is working in the county lunatic asylum in Prestwich as an attendant..

I don't know if she might be your Elizabeth? If so, then she was supposedly a widow before her children May and Albert were born.

Census 1891:

Name: Elizabeth Webb
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Gender: Female
Where born: Cleehill, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Prestwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Rainsough
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Prestwich
Sub-registration district: Prestwich

ED, institution, or vessel: County Lunatic Asylum (2)

Ernest Webb in 1911?:

Looks more like Clee Hills on original image.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PARKINSON, Peter Head Married M 55 1856 Blacksmiths Striker Lanc Bedford Leigh .
PARKINSON, Emma Wife Married 17 years F 44 1867 Hamnish Herefordshire .
>>>>WEBB, Ernest Boarder Single M 22 1889 Boiler Platers Helper Clee Kilby Shropshire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registration District:
Bolton Sub District:
Horwich Enumeration District:
9 Parish:
Horwich

Address:
11 Hawksley Sreet Horwich Lancasshire England County:
Lancashire

Could this be May in 1911? Age is a little out, but she has the same occupation in the same institution that her mother had, in the 1891 census I found, so maybe she got the job through her mother's contacts at the asylum?

Person: WEBB, May
Institution: County Lunatic Asylum, COUNTY LUNATIC ASYLUM
Prestwich Manchester
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WEBB, May Attendant Single F 20 1891 Day Attendant Lancashire Manchester .

Typically the person I can't identify in 1911 is Albert !

Hi Kucinta, I think I've found Albert in the 1911 census 15 yrs Under training for sea at the Navy League Sea Training Home, Withens Lane. Liscard, Cheshire. p.o.b. Rusholme, Lancs is the same as I have on the birth cert. But I still hacen't found anything for his father John/Thomas.
I know that my grandad was in the (merchant ? ) navy and even the army, I remember old photos of him in uniform from when I was little and he even had som service medals,
Jean

I guess the question is, was Elizabeth as flexible with the surname Webb as she was with Dudding, ie using it whether or not she went through a marriage ceremony?

Elizabeth states she is a widow in 1891, was that just a face saving device, or to make it easier to get employment?

Do all four Webb children, William, Ernest, May and Albert share the same father, or was William and Ernest's father genuinely deceased by census 1891?

Do the younger two children share the same father as each other, and possibly as the older two?

More questions than answers!

I would imagine there was a Mr Webb somewhere along the line, and presumably pre 1891. But did he hang around till Albert showed up, or has his surname become one of convenience fro Elizabeth and her children?

Hi Kucinta,
I've been bedridden with the flu and haven't been able to do anything at all. Thank you so much for taking the time looking at this. I agree with you that Elizabeth appears to have been quite a slippery customer. I haven't been able to find a death record that would pass in to the time frame 1894- 1903 for a John/Thomas Webb. Dist of Chorlton. Albert's father could have died whilst Elizabeth was pregnant with Albert but I'm no longer sure about any of this. I'd put so much hope into the birth certificate and only got even more confused when the christian name wasn't the same as on Grandad's marriage cert. I really feel like giving up. I don't know where to turn to try and get some clarity in this mess..!!
Thanks again for you help,
Regards
Jean

I'm wondering whether there was a previous thread with info in it that has been "found" again in this one, and if so where it might be, and why there's a new one ...


This birth matches Elizabeth Webb/Dudding's info in the 1901 and 1911 censuses fairly well:

Births Sep 1866
Lucas Elizabeth Cleobury M. 6a 531

I don't see a person to match in the 1871 census.


But there is this person in 1871:

Name: Elizabeth Webb
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas Webb
Mother's name: Rosanna Webb
Where born: Coreley, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Coreley
County/Island: Shropshire
Registration district: Cleobury Mortimer

Thomas Webb 37
Rosanna Webb 35
Edward Webb 8
Elizabeth Webb 6
Alice Webb 5
Louisa Webb 3
Alfred Webb 4 Months

and no birth in Cleobury reg dist to fit that Elizabeth Webb.

Oh, aha, Thomas and Rosanna are the grandparents young Ernest is with in 1891. So yes, I think that Elizabeth Lucas / Webb may be our woman.


I think Elizabeth got the surname Webb from her stepfather, not a first husband, maybe.


Well, this is odd, though. The household is Webb in 1861.

Thomas Webb 28
Rosa Webb 27
William Webb 7
Frederic John Webb 5
Mary Webb 3
John Webb 9 MO
Emma Webb 68

Civil Parish: Bennetts End
Registration district: Ludlow


And the marriage was in 1854:

Marriages Mar 1854
? Lucas Rosa Ann Tenbury 6c 277
Passey George Tenbury 6c 277
SQUIRES Sarah Tenbury 6c 277
? WEBB Thomas Tenbury 6c 277


Too much coincidence here, surely! but I'm not seeing how it works out. ;)

Possibly Elizabeth Lucas 1866 was a niece of Rosanna (Lucas) Webb?

By the way, I think the father's name on both birth and marriage certificates are fictions.

When Albert married, he named his maternal grandfather as his father. That's not at all unusual in the case of a child of unmarried parents, particularly if he was reared by his grandparents as Ernest, at least, was. (Thomas Webb was a coal miner.)

And I think Elizabeth Webb named a non-existent John Webb as the father on Albert's birth certificate to make herself look married.

It's a theory, anyhow!

The Webb household in 1881 in Bitterley:

Thomas Webb 48
Rosina Webb 46
William Webb 27
Edward Webb 19
Louisa Webb 12
Alfred Webb 10
Thomas Webb 8
Harriet Webb 5

(infant son John Webb in the 1861 census seems not to have survived to 1871)


I think this must be Elizabeth in 1881:

Name: Elizabeth Webb
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Servant
Where born: Corley, Shropshire, England
Occupation: Dairymaid (Ag)

Civil Parish: Bromfield
County/Island: Shropshire

(there still isn't an Elizabeth Webb birth 1861-1863 in the right place)


And she does look like the one Kucinta found in 1891:

Name: Elizabeth Webb
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Where born: Cleehill, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Prestwich
County/Island: Lancashire

I wonder whether claiming to be a widow, with a child to support, would have got better pay?


I wonder what Ernest's birth certificate says?

Births Sep 1888
WEBB Ernest Ludlow 6a 545