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The only death I can find for Francis Arnold - is that of the younger Francis - Greenwich 1894 - aged 53. There is a death for a John Arnold in 1888 - Greenwich aged 66 which would make him born 1822.

I am really am begining to think that Francis IS John ????

G

Thanks Mike - I'm afraid I am still going round in circles - what am I missing?

If there was only one Walter, he was Georges son, yet in 1871 and 1881 Walter is with grandparents “John” and Mary in Greenwich.

I can’t find a brother to George named John, but there is a brother Francis. George and Francis both have parents Francis and Mary (Tester). They are with them in 1851 in Horley – Francis is 9 and George is 5.

Francis marries Rose Fisher in 1859. She is a witness to Georges marriage to Mary Waghorn in 1865. In 1871 Francis and Rose are living next door to John and Mary – and Walter is with them.

Francis married Mary Tester in Dec 1841 but I cannot find him in 1841 census.

Gai

So this is the Walter who died in 1881
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WALTER GEORGE ARNOLD
Event(s):
Birth: 18 NOV 1865

Christening: 20 DEC 1865 St Alphage, Greenwich, Kent, England

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: GEORGE ARNOLD
Mother: MARY ANN


Strangely no entry for Walter G on freebmd
the only birth that seems to fit is recorded as Walter J....

Births Mar 1866
ARNOLD Walter J - Greenwich 1d 680

Thanks Mike. I agree. I think I will have to start over for George. I have a feeling that George has a brother called Francis and that John may very well be his Uncle.

Today I received a death cert for Walter Arnold - father George - died July 1881, aged 15 -cause of death: "accidental drowning in River Thames (Greenwich) whilst bathing". If there are two Walters, at least I know that the one who died is George's son but I was hoping for an address on the cert - the address given is Thames, Greenwich (!).

Off to search census again - I may be back for some more help!

Gai

I would say that this confirms that the Horley entry is your man.
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GEORGE ARNOLD
Christening: 11 MAY 1845 Horley, Surrey, England

Parents:
Father: FRANCIS ARNOLD
Mother: MARY ANN


Certificate :
------------------Births Jun 1845
ARNOLD George - Reigate 4 378

-------------------------------------------------
Doubt that Frank and John are one and the same -
Very possible that the 2 Walters are cousins.
I had a similar situation whereby two brothers each called their daughters Catherine in the same quarter ... No consideration I say !

Marriage certificate of George ARNOLD and Mary WAGHORN December 1865 St Lukes, Charlton arrived today! George's father is given as FRANK ARNOLD, a farmer. Mary's father is Stephen Waghorn, a gardener. The witnesses are Thomas John Beale and Rose Matilda Arnold.

So, either Frank decided to call himself John (?) or I have the wrong George on census records. I suspect the Francis aged 30 in 1871 with wife Rose is Georges brother and Rose is the witness at Georges marriage but I will need to check that out. Is John (aged 50 in 1871) actually Frank's brother ? Are there two Walters - cousins maybe of the same age?

More confused than ever!

Gai

I am a bit of a dolt!

I should have looked at the 1871 census a little more closely - John ARNOLD (aged 50) is there with MARY and WALTER (grandson, aged 5). Next door (!) is Francis Arnold aged 30, his wife Rose and their children. Next door to them (!) is Stephen Waghorn (this is Mary Ann Waghorns father) his wife Francis(mn Beale), Thomas Beale (son in law) and Edmund.

Elsewhere in Greenwich we have George Arnold, Mary Ann, Walter George (aged 5), George Stephen, Emily & Arthur. This is the family I am linked to.

Is it possible that Walter has been recorded in both places at the same time? Or is it more likely that these are two different Walter Arnolds ??

G

Thanks for your help Mike. I am certain about this marriage so I will order the cert.

Gai

Household:1881

George ARNOLD Head M Male 35 Horly, Surrey, England Lab General
Mary ARNOLD Wife M Female 34 Maidstone, Kent, England
Emily ARNOLD Daur Female 12 Greenwich, Kent, England Scholar
Arthur ARNOLD Son Male 10 Greenwich, Kent, England Scholar
Alice ARNOLD Daur Female 8 Greenwich, Kent, England Scholar
Susan ARNOLD Daur Female 5 Greenwich, Kent, England Scholar
Edward ARNOLD Son Male 3 Greenwich, Kent, England Scholar
Louisa ARNOLD Daur Female 1 Greenwich, Kent, England

Dwelling 15 Little Marlborough St
Census Place Greenwich, Kent, England
---------------------------------------------------------------


WALTER GEORGE ARNOLD

Birth: 18 NOV 1865

Christening: 20 DEC 1865 St Alphage, Greenwich, Kent, England

Parents:
Father: GEORGE ARNOLD
Mother: MARY ANN

---------------------------------------------

This looks like Mary's birth (confirming she was actually Mary Ann)

Births Jun 1847
Waghorne Mary Ann - Maidstone 5 313

-------------------------------------------------------

You really need George's marriage cert to be sure he is John's son first.

If you KNOW for sure that your George Arnold married Mary Waghorn then start with that cert and work backwards.
Otherwise you could be backing the wrong horse altogether !

Let us know how it turns out.

Mike - thank you for this. I was struggling to find the marriage for George and Mary Waghorn - I have another childs birth. I think I will need that cert.

If the Betchworth birth is right and John's first wife was Ann, I am even more confused now because a JOHN and MARY ARNOLD of BETCHWORTH appear in the 1851 cenus but without George:

Name: John Arnold
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Arnold
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Betchworth, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Betchworth
Ecclesiastical parish: Winchester
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Reigate
Sub-registration district: Reigate
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors: View others on page

Household schedule number: 64
Household Members: Name Age
John Arnold 32
Mary Arnold 26
Mary Ann Arnold 6
Sarah Arnold 4
Frederick Arnold 2


Also, I have found a death for George Arnold in Reigate - but before age at death was recorded :(

Deaths Sep 1849 (>99%)
________________________________________
Arnold George Reigate

Are these red herrings do you think?

Gai

Struggled to find correct marriage for George.
Another index error.- only 3 names.

Marriages Dec 1865 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harris Mary Ann Lewisham 1d 1330
STEVENS William James Lewisham 1d 1330
Waghorn Mary - Lewisham 1d 1330
-----------------------------

missing groom ....Dec 1865
Arnold George Lewisham 1d 133[06]

Do you have this marriage certificate?
It would confirm George's father's name and occupation.

Just a point.
John and Ann's son George was Christened in Betchworth... it doesn't say he was necessaily born there.

The birth cert will tell you his birthplace.

Maybe death of George's mother .... if so John wasn't wasting any time !

Deaths Jun 1855
Arnold Ann - Greenwich 1d 208


N.B.
entry is in italics which means ...

" The page number is not within the range expected for the district. Note that there a number of possible reasons for this, including an error in the district, the page, the volume, the date or the type of entry "

Looks like Mary Ann was not George's mother ...

Possible 2nd second for John
( which would be the Mary Ann on the census from 1861 onwards)


Marriages Jun 1855
*****************ARNOLD John - Greenwich 1d 737
****************HULL Mary Ann - Greenwich 1d 737
POWYS Charlotte Frances Greenwich 1d 737
SMITH Robert Greenwich 1d 737

This looks to be the marriage for John and Ann

Marriages Sep 1843

ARNOLD John Reigate 4 399
BOLTEN Ann Reigate 4 399
BOTTEN Ann Reigate 4 399

Thanks - I had that Francis/Mary marriage as a possible but the fact that his son is with JOHN was really throwing me!

The 1861 has Mary Ann:

Name: John Arnold
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1822
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Ann Arnold
Gender: Male
Where born: Horley, Surrey, England
Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich East
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 77
Household Members: Name Age
John Arnold 39
Mary Ann Arnold 40
George Arnold 16

Ah ... but she is Mary Ann on her baptism


MARY ANN TESTER
:
Christening: 19 MAR 1820 Horley, Surrey, England
Parents:
Father: H. ROSE TESTER
Mother: PHILLIS

It's just Mary on 1881 not Mary Ann....


John ARNOLD Head M Male 60 Horley, Surrey, England Sawyer
Mary ARNOLD Wife M Female 62 Horley, Surrey, England
Walter G. ARNOLD Grandson Male 15 Greenwich, Kent, England Lab Telegraph (10/3)

: Dwelling 35 Tyler St So
Census Place Greenwich, Kent, England


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possible marriage for Francis and Mary

Marriages Dec 1841 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***************ARNOLD Francis Reigate 4 383
BRAZIER John Reigate 4 383
COMBER Sarah Reigate 4 383
ELLIOTT Sarah Reigate 4 383
HUGGETT James Reigate 4 383
SNELLING Thomas Reigate 4 383
****************TESTER Mary Reigate 4 383


Marriage date ...Marriage: 10 OCT 1841 Horley, Surrey, England

Ooh - more info! Thanks! Still confused though - The Betchworth one looks more likely - but John's wife on other census is Mary Ann (could be second wife though I guess). Also, John and George give their birth place as Horley, not Betchworth.

Thanks Mike - I guess one belongs to Francis and one to John then! Looks like I will have to shell out for both certs :(

Still wish I could find John on 1851 though!

G