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This is a bit long winded but I have tried to give you as much information as I can. Here goes: -
My Grandmother is Sarah Ann Springthorpe born 1891 Ironville.
Her mother was Mary Elizabeth Brudenall (name can also be Brudenell). She had a twin sister Sarah Ann.
Mary Elizabeth Brudenall was born in Ironville (1868 or so I thought) and married John Henry Springthorpe in 1888.
This is the census for 1901: - Showing Mary Elizabeth married to John Springthorpe with my Grandmother Sarah Ann - aged 9.
John Springthorpe
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary E
Gender: Male
Where born: Bilston, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Alfreton
Ecclesiastical parish: Ironville Christchurch
Town: Ironville
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Street address: 23 Queen Street, Ironville.
Occupation: Mill Furnance Man
Condition as to marriage: married
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Cartwright 42 Lodger - Labourer from Derbyshire
George Gamp 17 Lodger - Labourer from Norwich Norfolk.
Charles A Springthorpe 3
John Springthorpe 39
Mary E Springthorpe 33
Sarah A Springthorpe 9
Wiliam H Springthorpe 12
These dates tie in with my dates.
The 1881 census (family search.org) (which I know is not 100%) but I don't have access to other history sites shows Mary E Brudenall - 3 years old with her twin sister Sarah Ann, which means that the twins were born in 1878.
I found a marriage of John & Mary in 1888. (which means she was 10) Her first child was born in 1889 - second 1890 and my GM in 1891.
This could be quite an eye opener or has the census got it wrong???
I can only find births for Mary & Sarah in 1878 as well so I am really confused.
The 1881 census:-
Joseph BRUDENALL Head M Male 39 Warmington, Northampton, England Labourer Ironworks
Mary A. BRUDENALL Wife M Female 36 Warmington, Northampton, England
Esther BRUDENALL Daur Female 15 Warmington, Northampton, England
Elizabeth BRUDENALL Daur Female 12 Warmington, Northampton, England Scholar
William BRUDENALL Son Male 6 Warmington, Northampton, England Scholar
Mary E. BRUDENALL Daur Female 3 Ironville, Derby, England
Sarah A. BRUDENALL Daur Female 3 Ironville, Derby, England
Charles BRUDENALL Son Male 1 Ironville, Derby, England
John BRUDENALL Brother U Male 23 Warmington, Northampton, England Labourer Ironworks
Jose BRUDENALL Brother U Male 20 Warmington, Northampton, England Labourer Ironworks
A fresh pair of eyes in definitely needed - Perhaps if someone wouldn't mind checking the 1881 census on another site or 1891 census too if that is not too much to ask please?
At the moment I have no idea what is happening and sometimes you begin to doubt the information that you know is true.
Your help will definitely be appreciated as I have deleted all my Brudenalls(Brudenells), until this is sorted out. What do you think?
Thank you
Ria x

Ria I have looked at the image for 1881 and the ages that you have are correct

Name: Mary E. Brudenall
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Joseph Brudenall
Mother's Name: Mary A. Brudenall
Gender: Female
Where born: Ironville, Derbyshire, England

Civil parish: Alfreton
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address: 23 Market St
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Belper
Sub-registration district: Alfreton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Brudenall 39
Mary A. Brudenall 36
Esther Brudenall 15
Elizabeth Brudenall 12
William Brudenall 6
Mary E. Brudenall 3
Sarah A. Brudenall 3
Charles Brudenall 1
John Brudenall 23
Jose Brudenall 20

1891 ?
Name: Mary E Springthorpe
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Warmington, Northamptonshire, England

Civil parish: Alfreton
Ecclesiastical parish: Ironville
Town: Ironville
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Belper
Sub-registration district: Alfreton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Brudenell 49 - Warmington
Mary A Brudenell 47
William H Brudenell 16
Sarah A Brudenell 13
Charles Brudenell 16
Frederick Brudenell 7
Alfred Brudenell 5/12
John Springthorpe 31 -Bilston
Mary E Springthorpe 22
William Springthorpe 2
Frederick Springthorpe 9/12


John and Mary are listed as lodgers

posting for reference -

1881

BRUDENALL, Joseph Head Married M 39 1842 Labourer Ironworks
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, Mary A Wife Married F 36 1845
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, Esther Daughter Single F 15 1866
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 12 1869 Scholar
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, William Son Single M 6 1875 Scholar
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, Mary E Daughter Single F 3 1878
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, Sarah A Daughter Single F 3 1878
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, Charles Son Single M 1 1880
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, John Brother Single M 23 1858 Labourer Ironworks
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENALL, Jose Brother Single M 20 1861 Labourer Ironworks
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG11 Piece:
3418 Folio:
14 Page:
19

Registration District:
Belper Sub District:
Alfreton Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Alfreton Municipal Borough:
Address:
23, Market St, Alfreton County:
Derbyshire




1891

BRUDENELL, Joseph Head Married M 49 1842 Iron Labourer
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Mary A Wife Married F 47 1844
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, William H Son Single M 16 1875 Apprentice To Blacksmith
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Sarah A Daughter Single F 13 1878 Scholar
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Charles Son Single M 11 1880 Scholar
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Frederick Son Single M 7 1884 Scholar
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Alfred Son Single M 0 (6M) 1891
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
SPRINGTHORPE, John Lodger Married M 31 1860 Iron Worker
Bieston
Staffordshire VIEW
SPRINGTHORPE, Mary E Lodger Married F 22 1869
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
SPRINGTHORPE, William Lodger Single M 2 1889
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
SPRINGTHORPE, Frederick Lodger Single M 0 (9M) 1891
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG12 Piece:
2749 Folio:
106 Page:
46

Registration District:
Belper Sub District:
Alfreton Enumeration District:
11 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Ironville

Civil Parish:
Alfreton Municipal Borough:
Address:
23, Market Place, Alfreton, Ironville County:
Derbyshire

1871 and Mary E Brudenall has same birth place as Mary E Springthorpe in 1891

Name: Mary E Brudenell
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Berry Brudenell
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Brudenell
Gender: Female
Where born: Warmington, Northamptonshire, England
Civil parish: Warmington
Town: Warmington
County/Island: Northamptonshire
Country: England
Registration district: Oundle
Sub-registration district: Fotheringhay
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 34
Household Members: Name Age
Berry Brudenell 32
Mary Ann Brudenell 27
Job Brudenell 22
Charles Brudenell 7
Esther Brudenell 5
Mary E Brudenell 3
William Brudenell 2 Months
Henry Brudenell 2 Months

I'm confused too!

Wow
It will take me a little time to check all the posts, really appreciate all your help everyone.
Thank you.
Ria x

Edit....... (lol) It looks like another trip to Matlock Records office.

are these 2 different families do you think?

births of Mary Emily and Sarah Ann Brudenell



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1877 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRUDNELL Mary Emily Belper 7b 576
BRUDNELL Sarah Ann Belper 7b 576



death of Mary Emily - she is not on the 1891 census -


Deaths Mar 1885 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brudenell Mary Emily 7 Belper 7b 378

Elizabeth on the 1881 census is 'probably' the one who married John Springthorpe. She appears to be Mary E on the 1871 census.

this birth may refer to the Mary Elizabeth born Warminton, Northants who is Mary E Springthorpe in 1891


Births Jun 1868
Brudenell Mary Elizabeth Oundle 3b 214

Warminton is in Oundle reg district

1911

BRUDENELL, Mary Ann Head Widow F 65 1846 Warmington Northants VIEW
SHACKLOCK, Sarah Ann Daughter Married
12 years F 33 1878 Ironville Derbyshire VIEW
SHACKLOCK, William Son-In-Law Married M 35 1876 Coal Miner Hewer Swanick Derbyshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Frederick Son Single M 27 1884 Coal Proter Carter Ironville Derbyshire VIEW
GAY, George Lodger Single M 26 1885 Mill Hand Iron Mill Norwich Norfolk VIEW
PYNE, Alfred George Lodger Single M 19 1892 Apprentice Truck Building Exmouth Devon VIEW
SHACKLOCK, Doris Granddaughter F 12 1899 School Ironville Derbyshire VIEW
SHACKLOCK, Horace Grandson M 9 1902 Jacksdale Notts VIEW
SHACKLOCK, Harry Grandson M 2 1909 Ironville Derbyshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
21000 Reference:
RG14PN21000 RG78PN1252 RD436 SD5 ED12 SN275

Registration District:
Belper Sub District:
Alfreton Enumeration District:
12 Parish:
Alfreton

Address:
23 Market St Ironville Alfreton County:
Derbyshire


married 45 years
12 children born, 6 have died

1901

BRUDENELL, Joseph Head Married M 58 1843 Fitter's Labourer
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Mary A Wife Married F 55 1846
Warmington
Northamptonshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Charles Son Single M 21 1880 Blacksmith's Striker
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
BRUDENELL, Frederick Son Single M 17 1884 Bricklayer's Labourer
Ironville
Derbyshire VIEW
PYWELL, Alice Niece F 11 1890
Old Fletton Peterboro
Huntingdonshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
3233 Folio:
98 Page:
21

Registration District:
Belper Sub District:
Alfreton Enumeration District:
13 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Ironville Christchurch

Civil Parish:
Alfreton Municipal Borough:
Address:
23, Market Street, Alfreton, Ironville County:
Derbyshire

is this your Springthorpe family in 1911

Parish: Alfreton Enum. District: 12

Address: 26 Market St Ironville Alfreton
County: Derbyshire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPRINGTHORPE, John Hry Head Married M 48 1863 Iron Founder Moulder Ironville Bilston Staffordshire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPRINGTHORPE, Elizabeth G Wife Married
22 years F 43 1868 Northamptonshire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPRINGTHORP, William Hry Son Married M 22 1889 Iron Worker At Shear Codnor Park Derbys

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPRINGTHORPE, Sarah Ann Daughter Single F 19 1892 Codnor Park Derbys

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPRINGTHORPE, Charler H Son Single M 13 1898 Codnor Park Derbys

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPRINGTHORPE, Dorothy Daughter Single F 8 1903 Codnor Park Derbys

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPRINGTHORPE, Folrice Daughter Single F 4 1907 Codnor Park Derbys

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPRINGTHORPE, Gladis Daughter F 2 1909 Codnor Park Derbys

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8 children 3 died

Thank you Glitte rBaby, RutlandBelle & Choccy.
I could have mixed two families & also found the death of Mary Emily. I understood from my parents that Mary Elizabeth was the mother but as you said Choccy Mary E is missing from the 1891 census.
The only thing I can do is check at the records office but at least I can take your results with me and try and make sense of it all.
I thought my Smiths confusing. Ancestors - who'd have em!
Ria x