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Hi Dea

Sorry I haven't been back earlier. I have been away on business. I can certainly see 'Farmer' now on the certificate and at least 'Walton' now marries up with the childrens birth certificates. It does look as though you are on to something. Does this get us anywhere nearer the elusive Robert Crawford do you think?

Regards

Gary

I am still following Henry Jeal and he is definately connected on the Walton side
- I won't post all the details as they will only confuse at this stage but I will keep them
in my notes and send them through later.

It doesn't help to find John Crawford.

It does prove, however, that Mary Ann's name was in fact Walton, NOT Warton!

I believe this is her on 1851:

1851 England Census
about Mary Ann Walton Name: Mary Ann Walton
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Walton
Mother's Name: Mary Walton
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Orpington, Kent, England

Civil parish: Orpington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England


Registration district: Bromley
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 3a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 72
Household Members: Name Age
John Walton 56 Farm Labr.
Mary Walton 55
Jesse Walton 23
Robert Walton 21
Mary Ann Walton 18


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1606; Folio: 382; Page: 18; GSU roll: 193505.

I know the occupation on marriage cert for John was a 'Turner' and that is what I read at first,
BUT - look again and tell me what you think!

Compare the first letter of Turner with the 'F' in February on the date of marriage,
then compare the second letter 'u' with the 'a' on the occupation above of 'Labourer'

Could this not actually say 'Farmer', which is a grand term for a farm labourer ??

I believe this to be 'your' Mary Ann!

If it DOES say Turner then this looks like the same couple on 1861 and by that time
John is a Wood Turner!

1861 England Census
about John Walton Name: John Walton
Age: 66
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1795
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Walton
Gender: Male
Where born: Orpington, Kent, England

Civil parish: Orpington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England


Registration district: Bromley
Sub-registration district: Chiselhurst
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 77
Household Members: Name Age
John Walton 66
Mary Walton 68

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 464; Folio: 163; Page: 12; GSU roll: 542643.

I cannot match this couple with any other that the one I posted on 1851 with daughter Mary Ann???



Let me know what you think............ I will carry on working on it.

Dea x

He certainly IS elusive !!!

I have been back on this for a couple of hours now but have not found anything more helpful.... YET.. !

I will keep at it and let you know if a have a 'breakthrough'

Dea x

Thanks Dea

Really appreciate your time on this. You have already got much further than I did. Robert is certainly an elusive character.

Gary

I believe Elizabeth (the other witness) is probably Elizabeth Plummer and I think I have her in 1851 census on Orpington.

I can't yet find a 'family' connection but she 'may' have later married Henry Jeal (there is a bride missing on marriage entry).

I can't do any more to check just now but will work on it again later.

Dea x

This is one of the witnesses but it doesn't help too much at the moment as I
think he will be connected on the bride's side (he is living alongside a Walton family
and lots of other Jeal's in Orpington:

1851 England Census
about Henry Jeal Name: Henry Jeal
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Grandson
Father's Name: David Jeal
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Orpington, Kent, England

Civil parish: Orpington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: Chapel Brow


Registration district: Bromley
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 3a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 94
Household Members: Name Age
James Jeal 68
Rebecca Jeal 69
David Jeal 33
Henry Jeal 15


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1606; Folio: 385; Page: 24; GSU roll: 193505.

I will go and look for Elizabeth.......

Dea x

You have mail.

Thanks

:0)

Have pm'd my e-mail

Dea x

Hi Dea

Absolutely. I can do that right away.

regards

Gary

Hi again Gary,

I am getting nowhere at the moment - we really need an extra bit of info from somewhere!!

Would you be able to scan me a copy of that marriage cert and I could see if I can work out the writing?

If so, I can pm you my direct e-mail address.

Let me know!

Dea x

Forget the 1837 John Rathbone Crawford as his parents at christening were George + Mary Ann !!!!!!!

I will work on Robert from the 1841.........

Dea x

Don't get your hopes up yet as there is a long way to go and it all has to be proved, but his age on marriage cert., if true, would be more likely to fit with this birth, which is at least in Kent (though not 'quite' Eltham) :

Births Dec 1837
Crawford John Rathbone Medway 5 268

Also, there 'is' a Robert Crawford in Eltham on 1841 who is an Ag lab, although John is not with him on the census:

1841 England Census
about Robert Crawford Name: Robert Crawford
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male

Civil parish: Eltham
Hundred: Blackheath
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Eltham
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Crawford 30 ..... Not born in County ! Ag labr.
Caroline Newmon 19

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 482; Book: 9; Civil Parish: Eltham; County: Kent; Enumeration District: 2a; Folio: 4; Page: 5; Line: 15; GSU roll: 306875.

I am trying to follow them all through but have to keep going to 'do other things' inbetween.

Dea x

Hi Dea

This sounds positive. Thank you.

The certificate is in really poor handwriting so I will do my best to translate. I can understand why there are so many transcription errors in records.

When married: February 27th 1858
John Crawford aged 21 a Bachelor & Labourer residing in Orpington. father Robert Crawford, a Labourer.
Mary Ann Warton aged 23 a Spinster residing in Orpington. father John Warton, a Turner.

I cannot make out the witnesses clearly but the first looks like it could be Henry or Harry something.

The other witness is Elizabeth and the surname looks as though it starts Plu

married at Orpington Parish Church, Kent

Regards

Gary

Having had a search through - there are indeed two families John + Mary Ann.

I believe you have the birth cert of 'the other one' ! - 'His father was james and mother Susanna !

I think you have the correct marriage cert and we should work from there!

What are the other details from this please - ages occupatiopns, fathers and occupations - addresses and, importantly - witnesses.

Also, I have found 'your' John/Jonathan on

61 + 71 census - both say born Eltham, Kent.

I will post these census and do some more checking (although have to go off line for a little while just now!)

1871 England Census
about Jonathan Crawford Name: Jonathan Crawford
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Crawford
Gender: Male
Where born: Eltham, Kent, England
Civil parish: Orpington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Bromley
Sub-registration district: Chislehurst
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 4
Household Members: Name Age
Jonathan Crawford 34 Farm labr.
Mary Ann Crawford 36
Alfred Crawford 10
Annie Crawford 8
Eliza Crawford 7
Emily Crawford 3
Ellen Crawford 7 Months


Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 878; Folio: 29; Page: 24; GSU roll: 823476.
.....................................................
1861 England Census
about John Crawford Name: John Crawford
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary A Crawford
Gender: Male
Where born: Eltham, Kent, England

Civil parish: Orpington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England


Registration district: Bromley
Sub-registration district: Chiselhurst
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 98
Household Members: Name Age
John Crawford 23 Ag Lab
Mary A Crawford 25
Alfred Crawford 8 MO



Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 464; Folio: 145; Page: 19; GSU roll: 542643.


Dea x

Hi Penny

I had originally made the assumption that the Warton/Crawford marriage was my Johnathan and I applied for the marriage cert. John's father is shown as Robert Crawford.

I then obtained birth certificates of the children Alfred and Johnathan and the mothers name is Walton on both. I thought as they were 16 years apart it would be a real coincidence if two separate registrars had both got the surname wrong.

Gary

Hi Dea

My father is still alive and he remembers his Grandmother and Grandfather (John Crawford 1876-1949) My father was born in 1933. His Grandmother was Mary Ann Croucher, widow of Reuben Croucher and born Mary Ann Roberts. I have census records and certificates confirming all this. By tracing back from Johnathan and obtaining certificates I have identified his siblings.

Getting back further is where I am coming unstuck.

Gary

Marriages Mar 1858
CRAWFORD John Bromley 2a 252
PALMER George Bromley 2a 252
Taylor Jane Bromley 2a 252
WARTON Mary Bromley 2a 252
WARTON Mary Ann Bromley 2a 252


are you assuming this is your Johnathan?

So,

Where have you traced 'your' Jonathan back to with CERTAINTY and what proof do you have that it is all correct ?

Can you give us ALL the details please?

Dea x

1881 England Census
about John Crawford
Name: John Crawford
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Crawford
Gender: Male
Where born: Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Orpington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: Gravel Pit Farm 1st Cottage
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Agl Lab

Registration district: Bromley
Sub-registration district: Chislehurst
ED, institution, or vessel: 8a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Crawford 43
Mary Ann Crawford 45
Alfred Crawford 20
Eleanor Crawford 10
Rosetta Crawford 7
Johnathan Crawford 5

1881 for ref
CRAWFORD, John Head Married M 43 1838 Agl Lab
Norfolk
CRAWFORD, Mary Ann Wife Married F 45 1836
Orpington Kent
CRAWFORD, Alfred Son Single M 20 1861 Agl Lab
Orpington Kent
CRAWFORD, Eleanor Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar
Orpington Kent
CRAWFORD, Rosetta Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar
Orpington Kent
CRAWFORD, Johnathan Son Single M 5 1876 Scholar
Orpington
Kent