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Hi Janey,

Im sorry, I would have replied earlier but didnt notice that the posts went on to a second page.

Tbh we did some investigating into this about a year ago on here and managed to find and eventually meet up with members of my fathers first family. Many thanks again for doing the research it is much appreciated!!!

We have sent off for the death certificate, which as you say seems to be the only way of determining the name he had when he died and other information, i.e. informants. We are also awaiting the marriage certificate of my grandparents. I think we will also be making a trip to Keighley soon to seen if we can find anything more out.

Again Many Thanks
Mark

Forgot to say

There isn't a death for a James Ronald Phillips to fit. One in Llanelly 1973, dob 1905, but there's a birth to match. Also no James R P Phillips (before 1970).

Do you have the certificate for the 1991 death that appears to match? If not, getting it seems the only way to rule out/in, although it might not definitively do that.

Oops -- of course, Flick, not thinking at all, was I?!

So his first marriage, in 1931, was to Elizabeth Millington.

His marriage to your mother was in 1948 and you say the certificate says James Ronald Peter Phillips. Actually, it was 1949, and yes, he is James R P Phillips in the index.

You might get the 1931 certificate to see what the full name is on that one.

Does the 1948 certificate say he is a widower? Or divorced possibly?

Looking for the death of an Elizabeth Phillips could be a bit of a hard row.

I'm wondering whether the name change was beause he was still married.

The first marriage was in Wrexham reg dist. The only likely birth there is

Births Mar 1911
Millington Elizabeth M Wrexham 11b 203

but she has a middle initial that isn't on the 1931 marriage record.


Name: Elizabeth Phillips
Birth Date: abt 1917
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1939
Age at Death: 22
Registration district: Wrexham
Inferred County: Denbighshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 400

A fair bit too young, unless the age is a mistake.

possibly

Name: Elizabeth Phillips
Birth Date: abt 1901
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1948
Age at Death: 47
Registration district: Wrexham
Inferred County: Denbighshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 416

i.e. death right before the marriage to your mother.

Births Mar 1901 ?
Millington Elizabeth Wrexham 11b 262


Are you in touch with anyone from your father's first family? assuming he had kids.

There are numerous Phillips-Millington births in Wrexham 1921-1938 (so there must have been more than one Phillips-Millington marriage ... yes, one in Wrexham 1921).

Hi,

Just a quick update. We have contacted some family member and have managed to find the marriage certificate for the marriage of my mother and father. In this my fathers full name is James Ronald Peter Phillips.

We don't know why/when Ronald Peter became his middle name instead of Richard. We are now wondering if Ronald Peter was the name used for his death records.

Regards
Mark

Thanks for the info Flick!

Regards
Mark

Only for BIRTHS is there a six-week period for registration.

Marriages are registered immediately, as the procedure is the responsibility of the authorities........NOT the couple marrying

oh sorry, must be getting tired. it was 1526 we ordered.

ah right i didnt know it could have been as early as May. yeah the certificate will hopefully answer some questions.

I will be sending away for my fathers death certificate as well. am interested in who the informants were

Regards

I'd change that order if you can -- it looks like 1526 is the right one.

... Checking the image at Ancestry (which is clearer than FreeBMD, generally) ... and yes, for Sarah it actually says 1526. And ditto for Richard.

There, I've redeemed myself. ;)

Had you found them together somewhere as 1525?

And no, w/o the certificate, no way of knowing the date or month. In fact, a marriage registered in jul-aug-sep quarter could have happened as early as May, since people had 6 weeks to register.

On FreeBMD, "Sep" stands in for the jul-aug-sep quarter.

ah i get you. We have sent off for the certificate for the marriage for Sarah Anne and Richard in 6a 1525.

can i ask, do you know that it was September 1908 or just that quarter? we have not been able to narrow it down

Regards
Mark

oh no!, i am very very grateful for your efforts!!

Chirk Bank does seem to ring a bell. Im not surprised you thought there was only one sarah parry with father james parry. tbh so did we, but for some reason and only by luck we found possibly the right one. we had not even come across the one you mentioned, which shows how well you went into it

thanks again

Mark

Here's how I missed it (and presumably others did too!) -- there's a missing groom:

Marriages Sep 1908
CORBETT William Oswestry 6a 1525
JAMES Mary Elizabeth Oswestry 6a 1525
JONES Agnes Oswestry 6a 1525
> PARRY Sarah Anne Oswestry 6a 1525
ROBERTS John Oswestry 6a 1525

or, more accurately, a missing bride:

Marriages Sep 1908
DAVIES Priscilla Oswestry 6a 1526
DAVIES William Oswestry 6a 1526
> PHILLIPS Richard Oswestry 6a 1526

It seems to be Sarah's record that is in error at FreeBMD, but I'd be careful to check both images before ordering the certificate.

Then submit a correction to FreeBMD, and once you have the certificates, you can add postems at FreeBMD (include an email address) indicating that they married each other and then anyone else who searches for them will be able to contact you.

How did I miss that Parry+Phillips marriage??

I was initially looking to see whether there were any Phillips-Parry births after 1911, who would be siblings of your father, then looked for the marriage and blew it.

(Just by the bye now -- Divorce would be very very unusual; the non-rich seldom had access to it. Bigamy was actually more common!)


So Sarah Parry Wilson seems to be a red herring; I had thought there was one consistent Sarah Parry with father James in each of the 1871-1901 censuses, but looking back, I was sloppy.

Looks like yours:

Births Jun 1871
Parry Sarah Ann Oswestry 6a 714

There are others; possibly Wilson is this one:

Births Jun 1873
Parry Sarah Oswestry 6a 728


Yours:

1891 England Census
Name: Sarah A Parry
Father: James Parry
Birth: abt 1868 - Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales
Residence: 1891 - Chirk Bank, St Martins, Shropshire, England

Not yours:

1891 Wales Census
Name: Sarah Parry
Father: James Parry
Birth: abt 1873 - Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales
Residence: 1891 - Chirk Green, Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales


Smite me with a quill pen, and leave this all here as evidence of my downfalling -- and because ruling out is always useful.

Yours (again pending confirmation) in 1901:

Name: Sarah A Parry
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: James Parry
Where born: Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales

Civil parish: Weston Rhyn
Town: Lower Chirk Bank
County/Island: Shropshire

James Parry 65
Sarah A Parry 31


My apologies, and back over to you.

Hi Janey,

We have done some research today and found that a Sarah Parry married a Richard Phillips in the quarter Jul/Aug/Sep 1908 in Oswestry. This would coincide with my father being born in October 1908. we have sent off for this marriage certificate.

However the information about her which you have given (born C 1873, fathers name james parry and from Chirk, does coincide with what we have. could it be that she got divorced and remarried my grandfather in 1908?? This earlier marriage is a complete surprise! and we have noticed that she had four children from this earlier marriage.

Thank you very much for taking to time to look this up!

Mark

Sarah Phillips (daughter of James Parry, in 1911 census) seems to have been married before:


1901

Name: Sarah Wilson
[Sarah Parry]
Age in 1901: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: James F Wilson
Father's name: James Parry
Gender: Female
Where born: Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales

Civil parish: Chirk
Town: Chirk
County/Island: Denbighshire
Registration district: Oswestry

James F Wilson 34
Sarah Wilson 28
James D Wilson 6
Ardrie Wilson 5
Gladys M Wilson 3
Margaret L Wilson 1
James Parry 56 - Sarah's father
John Parry 25 - Sarah's brother



Marriages Dec 1893
Parry Sarah Oswestry 6a 1364
Wilson James Frederick Oswestry 6a 1364


Looks like maybe Sarah and Richard Phillips weren't married.


Name: James F Wilson ?
Birth Date: abt 1866
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1924
Age at Death: 58
Registration district: Oswestry
Inferred County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 728


All pending confirmation of the parents' names on the 1908 birth certificate!

Hi Mary,

Thank you very much!! that would be incredible If you could find out where he is buried. To know where he ended up would mean so much to us.

Thanks Again

Mark

I will see if i can find where he is buried and maybe that will give a clue.

Maryb

EDIT I have wrote to someone who has burial records in keighley.

Hi All.

Thank you all very much for you help and efforts. You have found out some very interesting information for us, for which we are greatly appreciative. We will now act on this and request the relevant certificates

Thanks Again

Mark

Name: James Richard Phillips
Birth Date: 4 Oct 1908
Date of Registration: May 1991
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Keighley
Inferred County: Yorkshire
Volume: 4
Page: 561

Buy the death cert.....the informant's name and address will be recorded. He/she may still be at the address, and able to give you info about the man.

It would appear to tie in:.

Name: James Richard Phillips
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1908
Registration district: Oswestry
Inferred County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 595

Name: James Richard Phillips
Birth Date: 4 Oct 1908
Date of Registration: May 1991
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Keighley
Inferred County: Yorkshire
Volume: 4
Page: 561

1911 census - household transcription
Person: PHILLIPS, James Richard
Address: Bridge View Chirk Bank Chirk


PARRY, James Head Widower M 75 1836 Retired Engine Driver Avenbury Wrexham VIEW
PHILLIPS, Richard Son Law Married M 58 1853 Baker General St Martins Salop VIEW
PHILLIPS, Sarah Anne Daughter Married
2 years F 41 1870 Chirk Dembighshire VIEW
PHILLIPS, James Richard Grandson M 2 1909 Weston Rhyn Salop VIEW

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RG number:
RG14 Piece:
16155 Reference:
RG14PN16155 RG78PN998 RD350 SD4 ED3 SN92