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Wow mgny. What a find, thank you so much. I know that you have a question mark there but the spookiest thing about your posting is that my grandfather and great grandfather on the paternal side of my family were both called William Farrell!

Blistering barnacles - is this their marr?

Marriage: 31 Dec 1793 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Joseph Howarth - (X), of Hindley
Betty Haddock - (X), of Hindley
Witness: William Farrell?; Wm. Bancks
Married by Banns by: John Fawel
Register: Marriages 1790 - 1803, Page 104, Entry 322
Source: LDS Film 1885689

You'ld have to check or get checked the transcription.

Hi Margee and mgnv. Thank you so much for that fascinating piece of information. I'd guess that lots of family history researchers are not aware of the rounding down of ages, particularly relatively new members like myself. Still trying to figure it out re Jane though. Am presuming that according to the 1841 census, her birth year could have been anything from 1801 to 1805-yes? BUT on the 1851 census, she's recorded as being 48 years of age with the birth year of 1806 when rounding down didn't happen. Jane had siblings- William, baptised in 1799, Betty in 1802, Mary in 1803 and Joseph in 1806 which leaves her only the birth years of 1801,1804 and 1805. Does that make sense to you!? If you haven't lost the will to live reading this, thank you so much for your help. Oh, how I wish that I could simply track down a baptism record for her. That clarifies all. Best wishes from Lynn.

Baptisms: 7 Dec 1799 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
William Howarth - son of Joseph Howarth & Elisabeth (formerly Maddock)
Born: 19 Nov 1799
Abode: Hindley
Occupation: Weaver
Source: LDS Film 93745

Baptism: 23 Mar 1806 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Joseph Howarth - 2nd son of Joseph Howarth & Elisabeth (formerly Maddock))
Born: 12 Feb 1806
Abode: Hindley
Occupation: Weaver
Mother's Parents: Wm & Betty Maddock
Source: LDS Film 93745


So, I presume, both Joseph & Jane had their age recorded as 35 in 1841.
Joseph was 35, but 1841 was the one census when adult (15+) ages were supposed to be rounded down to a mult of 5, so if Jane reported her age correctly, she could be 35 thru 39. Actually, a=35 is unlikely - the earliest Jane could be born is 7/6/1840, but we know Joseph was b 12/2/1841 so that pretty much puts the mockers on that unless she were a twin.

The reason for my thinking Jane isn't Joseph's twin is they weren't baptized together. I would think this quite unusual (but possible).

Now Betty and Jane have the same birth year!!!!! I think this tree belongs to Tony who has provided me with a lot of information.According to Tony, Betty was baptised on 2 June 1802, so was probably born in May. Jane couldn't possibly then have been born in the same year and if she'd been a twin would have, I assume, been baptised at the same time. Thank you so much for your patience with this conundrum Andy.

Now Betty and Jane have the same birth year!!!!! I think this tree belongs to Tony who has provided me with a lot of information.According to Tony, Betty was baptised on 2 June 1802, so was probably born in May. Jane couldn't possibly then have been born in the same year and if she'd been a twin would have, I assume, been baptised at the same time. Thank you so much for your patience with this conundrum Andy.

Remember that ages of those over 15 on the 1841 census are rounded down to the nearest 5 or 0 so it often looks like children are the same age when they could be as much as 4 years apart.

A tree on Ancestry has these chiuldren listed

Hannah Howarth 1795 – 1880
Betty Howarth 1797 –
William Howarth 1799 –
Betty Howarth 1802 –
Jane Howarth 1802 –
Mary Howarth 1803 –
Joseph Howarth 1806 –
Matthew Howarth 1808 – 1881
Rachel Howarth 1810 –
Margaret Howarth 1813 –
Ann Howarth 1815 – 1855
James Howarth 1818 – 1843


Andy

Thank you Mary. William certainly fits but I have no record of Harriot. The youngest child I have of theirs is James, born in Lowton St. Marys, Lancashire and baptised on the 28 February 1818 in Lowton where I believe they stayed. Many thanks for searching on my behalf, it's much appreciated.

Christened in Hindley Lancs,
William Haworth 7/12/1799 and Harriott 19/3/1820,
by Joseph and Elizabeth.

Maryb.

Thank you so much for searching Baptism record for me Staffslass. Can't understand why Jane isn't there as there were eleven children and I have Baptism dates for all of them except William born in1799 and Jane who was born who knows when! I very much appreciate your help, thanks again.

Second one correct Andy. I think that because it's faint, it probably is Heeley, not Kelley as everything else fits. You have therefore solved my puzzle in relation to her having the same birth year as Joseph, but she now has the same birth year as her sister Mary!!! I think I must track down baptism records as there is a sister Betty baptised on 2 June 1802 and Mary baptised on 22 October 1803, so where does Jane fit in?? I think I'm giving up this family history lark, it does your head in!

I found this baptism then, in Hindley

Joseph Howarth
2nd son of Joseph Howarth and Elisabeth (formerly Maddock)

Baptism date 23rd March 1806

Date of Birth on Baptism record given as 12th February 1806

Father occupation weaver.



Cannot see a Baptism for Jane or any other children.

Hi Staffslass, yes, their parents were Joseph Howarth 1771-1852 born in Astley, Lancashire and Elizabeth Maddock 1774-1854.

Lynn,

I don't want to put information on here if it is incorrect, it will just confuse things, so do you know the names of Joseph and Janes parents.

Hi Lynn

First 1851 for Jane is wrong. See second post! much better fit for details.

Andy

Re. Jane Howarth/Heeley. Am now totally confused. If this is the same person, how come her birth year is 1806 in the 1841 census. If the 1851 census records the right person then she must have given birth to illegitimate Ann when she was 13 years of age if my maths is correct.

The 1851 posted for Jane is wrong. Ithink this is the family. Correct names and ages for children. Jane born 1803, Hindley

Image is faint but could easily be Heeley.

1851 England Census
about John Kelley Name: John Kelley
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Kelley
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Warrington, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Tipton
Ecclesiastical parish: Ocker Hill
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Dudley
Sub-registration district: Tipton
ED, institution, or vessel: 1p
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 131
Piece: 2029
Folio: 512
Page Number: 36
Household Members: Name Age
John Kelley 45
Jane Kelley 48
Ann Kelley 17
Elizabeth Kelley 7
Margaret Kelley 4


Andy

Yep, Joseph spot on. So he was definitely born in 1806.

Thanks AGAIN Andy! Am going to have to put you onto my payroll. Could be the right person, but where are the three children recorded in the 1841 census, I wonder? I know that this Jane was dead by 1861 census as John is recorded as widower then.