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Thank you everyone for your help sorry for the delay have been away for a few days :-)

i suspect a bit of face saving going on

Mary wilson born c1808 married John Guthrie c1847

their daugher elspeth was born c1856

suspect she is john Guthrie mum as his baptism only shows her name ,no father

would explain why he was living with his gran mary on census

Robert's death:

VANNET
ROBERT
54
1913
307/ 22
Mains and Strathmartine

1911 - No other Vannets living with him.

VANNET
ALEXANDER
1911
M
22
271/ 2/ 10
Arbirlot
Angus





Elspeth Pannet
in the 1901 Scotland Census
Name: Elspeth Pannet
Age: 46
Estimated birth year: abt 1855
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robert Pannet
Gender: Female
Where born: Rescobie, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 307/2
Registration district: Strathmartine
Civil Parish: Strathmartine
County: Angus
Address: Strathmartine Old Baldragon
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 124
Line: 25
Roll: CSSCT1901_110
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Pannet 44
Elspeth Pannet 46
Jane I Pannet 17
Robert Pannet 15
Alexr Pannet 12
Elspeth Pannet 8
Barbara Pannet 4



1911-

VANNET
BARBARA
1911
F
14
307/ 4/L 8
Mains and Strathmartine
Angus


VANNET
JANE S
1911
F
26
307/ 4/L 8
Mains and Strathmartine
Angus


VANNET
ELSPETH
1911
18
307/ 4/L 8
Mains and Strathmartine
Angus


VANNET
ELSPETH
1911
F
55
307/ 4/L 8
Mains and Strathmartine
Angus


VANNET
ROBERT
1911
M
54
307/ 4/L 8
Mains and Strathmartine
Angus

The son Alexander (and his sister Jane) :

Alexander Vannet
in the British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: Alexander Vannet
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1888
Enlistment Age: 26
Document Year: 1914
Residence Place: 46 Watson St, Dundee
Regiment Name: Royal Artillery (Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery)
Number of Images: 15
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
Alexander Vannet Self (Head)
Jane Vannet Sister

Robert Vannet
in the UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
Name: Robert Vannet
Birth Place: Carmyllie, Forfarshire
Death Date: 27 Jul 1918
Death Place: France and Flanders
Enlistment Place: Fettercairn
Rank: Corporal
Regiment: Gordon Highlanders
Battalion: 5th Battalion
Regimental Number: 242250
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre


EDIT:

No - too young.
That's this man:


Corporal VANNET, ROBERT
Service Number 242250
Died 27/07/1918
Aged 26
1st/5th Bn.
Gordon Highlanders
Son of William Vannet, of Lawton Cottage, Arbroath.

Possibly Elspeth's death (but don't know if Elspeth who married Vannet is "our" Elspeth or not - would need to see the marriage cert for parents' names)

VANNET
ELSPETH
53
1911
282/2 689
St Mary


And death of a probable daughter - though I don't see the birth so far:

VANNET
ELSPETH
83
mms GUTHRIE
1976
370/ 26
Sidlaw

if that was his mum this death would tie with her being deceased when john married


Elspeth Guthrie /vannet
1856–1911
Birth ABT 1856 • Rescobbie, Forfarshire, Scotland.
Death 20/11/1911 • Dundee, Angus, Scotland.

Ancestry suggests this is Elspeth's marriage - although subsequent censuses show her YOB as 1856:

GUTHRIE
ELSPETH
VANNET
ROBERT
1878
282/4 44
St Andrew (Dundee)


Elspeth Vannet
in the 1881 Scotland Census
Name: Elspeth Vannet
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robert Vannet
Gender: Female
Where born: Rexobbie, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 307/1
Registration district: Mains
Civil Parish: Mains
County: Angus
Address: Parkhead
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 109
Line: 12
Roll: cssct1881_94
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Vannet 24
Elspeth Vannet 25
William Vannet 2
James Vannet 1


Elspeth Vannet
in the 1891 Scotland Census
Name: Elspeth Vannet
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robert Vannet
Gender: Female
Where born: Rescobie, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 319
Registration district: St Vigeans
Civil Parish: St Vigeans
County: Angus
Address: Parkconon (5)
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 30
Line: 10
Roll: CSSCT1891_105
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Vannet 34
Elspeth Vannet 35
William Vannet 12
James S Vannet 11
Jane S Vannet 7
Robert Vannet 5
Alexander Vannet 2
Mary G Vannet 3 Mo

So probably Elspeth in 1871:

Elspeth Guthrie
in the 1871 Scotland Census
Name: Elspeth Guthrie
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1853
Relationship: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Rescobie, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 307/1
Registration district: Mains
Civil Parish: Mains
County: Angus
Address: Mains Of Lindry
Occupation: Gen Servt (domestic)
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 72
Line: 3
Roll: CSSCT1871_57
Household Members:
Name Age
William Cobb 72
Ellen Gardon 55
Elspeth Guthrie 18

The family in 1871:

John Guthrie
in the 1871 Scotland Census
Name: John Guthrie
Age: 54
Estimated birth year: abt 1817
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Mary Guthrie
Gender: Male
Where born: Kinnell, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 307/1
Registration district: Mains
Civil Parish: Mains
County: Angus
Address: Honeygreen
Occupation: Carter
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 181
Line: 12
Roll: CSSCT1871_57
Household Members:
Name Age
John Guthrie 54
Mary Guthrie 53
John Guthrie 20
William Guthrie 16
Mary Guthrie 14
James Guthrie 12
Jean Ann Guthrie 7
Andrew Guthrie 10
Mary A Guthrie 5


And in 1861, showing Elspeth:


John Guthrie
in the 1861 Scotland Census
Name: John Guthrie
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1818
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Mary Guthrie
Gender: Male
Where born: Kinnell, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 316
Registration district: Panbride
Civil Parish: Panbride
County: Angus
Address: Pithvie Cottage
Occupation: Ploughman
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 45
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1861_46
Household Members:
Name Age
John Guthrie 43
Mary Guthrie 42
Betsy Guthrie 20
Margaret Guthrie 16
Elspeth Guthrie 11 - Rescobie, Forfarshire <<<<<<<<<<
John Guthrie 9
David Guthrie 8
William Guthrie 7
May Guthrie 4
James Guthrie 1

the 1881 I posted above, with a John Guthrie at school, can't be the right one.

He's actually with his grandparents:

John Watson
in the 1881 Scotland Census
Name: John Watson
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Relationship: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Dundee, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 307/1
Registration district: Mains
Civil Parish: Mains
County: Angus
Address: Honey Green
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 129
Line: 7
Roll: cssct1881_94
Household Members:
Name Age
John Guthrie 65
Mary Guthrie 63
James Guthrie 22 - son
Andrew Guthrie 20 - son
Jane Guthrie 17 - daughter
Mary Guthrie 15 - grand-daughter
John Watson 9



It would need a look at the original to know if Watson is given as his surname, or as a middle name with the surname Guthrie omitted in the transcription. (The latter seems more likely.)

looks like his death

GUTHRIE

JOHN WATSON

78


1950

387/ 570

Perth

so born c1872

So he invented a father on his marriage cert, for respectability.

EDIT: But his marriage cert says mms Watson ??

His birth cert details -

Illegitimate.
Noon, 1st June 1872, at Hawkhill, Dundee.
Mother: Elspeth Guthrie, domestic servant, Midmill, parish of Mains.

Elspeth was the informant - she made her mark.

Name: John Watson Guthrie
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 1 Jun 1872
Birth Place: Dundee,Angus,Scotland
Mother: Elspeth Guthrie
FHL Film Number: 6035516

doesnt give a fathers name

as he lived in mains this looks a likely birth
GUTHRIE

JOHN WATSON

M

1872

307/1 39

Mains

I think this coud be his birth, in Mains, with middle name Watson - even though the year doesn't agree with the marriage and all the censuses.
1891 shows a middle initial W:

GUTHRIE
JOHN WATSON
M
1872
307/1 39
Mains

EDIT:

And I see Shirley's post above gives the middle name Watson.

a tree on ancestry has this

Marriage
27 Nov 1915 • Dundee

By declaration and warrant of Sheriff at 16 King Street Dundee
John Watson Guthrie

(1872–)

Mary ann stewart nee Duncan
8.2.1875-3.3.1926

her husband died in 1914 in ww1

David Stewart
1878–1915
Birth 8 DEC 1878 • Lethnot, Angus
Death 4 JAN 1915 • 1, Clearing, H, ptl, France

Possibly John in 1881, at school:

John Guthrie
in the 1881 Scotland Census
Name: John Guthrie
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Relationship: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Forfarshire, Brechin
Registration Number: 307/2
Registration district: Strathmartine
Civil Parish: Strathmartine
County: Angus
Address: Baldovan
Occupation: Scholar
ED: Industrial School For Boys
Line: 1
Roll: cssct1881_94

For elimination purposes, this is NOT the Mary Ann aged 22 in 1891 above - this one is with her parents in 1891:

Mary Ann Guthrie
in the Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name: Mary Ann Guthrie
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 25 Oct 1869
Birth Place: Montrose,Angus,Scotland
Father: James Guthrie
Mother: Ann Lyall
FHL Film Number: 6035516