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Thank you all once again

1851 for William. I have edited this as there are more than 20 names incuded.

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Aldermanbury, Saint Mary Aldermanbury, City of London, London & Middlesex, England

John Holmes - Unmarried Male 30 1821 Warehouseman Monmouthshire, Wales
William Moore - Unmarried Male 38 1813 Warehouseman Cromer, Norfolk, England
John Harland - Unmarried Male 23 1828 Warehouseman Lindfield, Sussex, England
>>William B McNeil - Unmarried Male 18 1833 Clerk Greatworth, Northamptonshire, England

Place of birth is actually Scotland and, I think, Greenock.



Just a maybe for his birth.

William
Last name McNeil
Gender Male
Birth year 1833
Birth place Middle or New Parish, Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Father's last name McNeil
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name Trent
Place Greenock

The above William seems to have a brother, Daniel, born in 1829. On Scotlandspeole his mother's name is listed as Mary T Denniston.

This looks like the brother in 1871

Record Transcription:
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Dale Road, St Pancras, London & Middlesex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place

Daniel McNeill Head - Male 42 1829 - Scotland
Elizabeth McNeill Wife - Female 35 1836 - Ireland
Adolphus McNeill Son - Male 7 1864 - Kent, England
Rose Keogh Visitor - Female 25 1846 - Ireland

the birth found by rootgatherer

Name: Daniel Mcneil
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 30 Dec 1829
Birth Place: Middle OR New Parish, Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Father: Daniel Mcneil
Mother: Mary T. Denniston
FHL Film Number: 1041060

MCNEIL

MARY

72


1873

564/3 980

Greenock Old or West


???? father
MCNEIL

DANIEL



1860

564/1 274

Greenock New or Middle

1891
Name: Daniel McNeill
Age: 60
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Elizabeth M McNeill
Gender: Male
Where born: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 644/9
Registration district: Kelvin
Civil Parish: Glasgow Sandyford
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 4 Kelvingrove St
Occupation: Occupied in H M Customs
ED: 21
Household schedule number: 56
Line: 17
Roll: CSSCT1891_275
Household Members:
Name Age
Daniel McNeill 60
Elizabeth M McNeill 53
Adolphus D McNeill 27
Samuel T McC Lowrie 20

1881
Name: Adolphus D McNeill
Age: ??7
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Relationship: Son
Father's name: Daniel McNeill
Mother's name: Elizabeth T McNeill
Gender: Male
Where born: England
Registration Number: 622/1
Registration district: Maryhill
Civil Parish: Maryhill
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 257 Saracen St
Occupation: Commercial Clerk
ED: 14
Household schedule number: 35
Line: 2
Roll: cssct1881_200
Household Members:
Name Age
Daniel McNeill 53 but born glasgow
Elizabeth T McNeill 49 born irenand
Adolphus D McNeill ??7

Name: Adolphus Daniel McNeill
[Daniel Alexander]
Death Date: 20 Jun 1928
Death Place: Glasgow, Scotland
Probate Date: 2 Jan 1929
Probate Registry: London, England

confirmation to marion tulloch hunter / mcneil widow

MCNEILL, ADOLPHUS DANIEL MURRAY
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in LEWISHAM UNION Volume 01D Page 775

ame: Daniel Mcneill
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 9 Jan 1851
Marriage Place: St James, Dub, Ire
Father: Daniel Mcneill
Spouse: Elizabeth Murray
FHL Film Number: 101326
Reference ID: 2:3HL7BNS


View Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, Electoral Registers, 1857-1962
Name: Adolphus Daniel McNeill
Residence Year: 1898
Address: 4 Kelvingrove street
Residence Place: Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Parliamentary Division: Glasgow
Occupation: Customs' officer

But no Euphemia or Phoebe.

I don't feel happy about that William, though I agree his birthplace does look like either Greenock or Gourock in 1851 census.

thanks

Just gut feeling - I'm inclined to think that the Phoebe in the orphan asylum in 1841, already posted, is probably the right one.

In 1841 there are a few William McNeils (or other spelling) of about the right age, who don't seem to be with parents or other family members.

Just a couple of examples:

William Macneal
in the 1841 England Census
Name: William Macneal
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1833
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: Broadwater
Hundred: Brightford
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
View image
Registration district: Worthing
Sub-registration district: Broadwater
Neighbors:
Piece: 1095
Book: 1
Folio: 21
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
William Macneal 8
James Blakie 20 - carpenter



Wm MacNiel
in the 1841 England Census
Name: Wm MacNiel
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: Alderbury
Hundred: Alderbury
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
View image
Registration district: Alderbury
Sub-registration district: Alderbury
Neighbors:
Piece: 1164
Book: 1
Folio: 6
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
Thos MacIntosh 38 - schoolmaster, Scotland
Barbara Hardy 60 - Scotland
Wm MacNiel 6



??? IF (enormous IF) the children were farmed out, and IF John Daniel existed and wasn't invented by William for respectability::

John McNeil
in the 1841 England Census
Name: John McNeil
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1796
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: St Olave
Hundred: Southwark
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: Guys Hospital
Occupation: patient, SEAMAN
View image
Registration district: St Olaves
Sub-registration district: St Olave and St Thomas
Neighbors:
Piece: 1088
Book: 12
Folio: 35
Page Number: 8

To confuse matters further, this appears to be the same Phoebe that is the orphan in 1841.

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Tower Hamlets, Hackney, London & Middlesex, England

First name(s) Phoebe
Last name M'neal
Relationship Pupils
Marital status -
Sex Female
Age 13
Birth year 1838
Occupation -
Birth place England
Birth town Wanstead
Birth town as transcribed Wanstead
Birth county Essex
Birth county as transcribed Essex

EDIT London Orphan Asylum

It may be that either Phoebe was a "pet" name for Euphemia, or else the enumerator in 1861 thought they said Phemie, which is a diminutive of Euphemia, and therefore wrote Euphemia.

All conjecture!

[ A lot depended on the enumerators when many people were illiterate.
I have an ancestor named Silas, who is listed as Silence in 1841.]

Interestingly, a few of the birthplaces (including Phoebe's) on that 1851 census for Phoebe (at the London Orphan Asylum) have been written by a different person from the one who wrote the orphans' names and the majority of the birthplaces.

Not sure what that implies, if anything! Maybe that they didn't know at first what birthplace to put down.
Most of the other (added later ?) birthplaces are just "London", which sounds as if they were guessing.


Her birthplace in different censuses (assuming this is the same person in each census):

1841 - none stated
1851 - Wanstead
1861 - Scotland (assuming she is Euphemia)
1871 - Liverpool
1881 - Scotland

Just because I came across this - not adding anything we don't already know:

On a list of "County Electors, not Parliamentary Electors" - virtually all women.
List prepared the previous year, as she died in Dec 1890:

Phoebe McNeil
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Phoebe McNeil
Electoral Date: 1891
Street address: 26 Lillieshall road
Ward or Division/Constituency: Clapham
County or Borough: Wandsworth, England

The Phoebe in the 1857 workhouse record posted by Mel on page 1 is not the one we want (record copied here again for ease of viewing:)

London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1930
Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1930
Name: Pheobe Neill
Admission Age: 18
Record Type: Admission
Birth Date: abt 1839
Admission Date: 28 Jan 1857
Admission Place: Southwark, Southwark, London, England


There's also this earlier record:

Phoebe Nial
in the London, England, Selected Poor Law Removal and Settlement Records, 1698-1930
Name: Phoebe Nial
Residence Age: 2
Birth Date: abt 1838
Event Type: Examinations
Residence Date: 28 Dec 1840
Residence Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green
Residence: Bethnal Green, London, England
Reference Number: BEBG/267/002

The handwriting on the image is very hard to read.
But it's about a John Neal, aged 37, of 97 Hare (?) Street, weaver.
He had been infirm (I think), and his late father David Neal (something - can't read most of the next two lines).
Mrs Eliza Nial, deceased 2 years. (Something) never acquired a settlement.
Married (?) on 11 Feb 1827 at Whitechapel (certificate produced) to Jane Pye his present wife aged 36, and (something) by her three children, William 7, Phoebe 2 yrs, and David 2 weeks.

So this is that Phoebe's birth:

NIAL, PHOEBE mms PYE
GRO Reference: 1838 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 33

And the baby David:

NIAL, DAVID mms PYE
GRO Reference: 1840 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 65

Parents' marriage:

Jane Pye
in the England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
Name: Jane Pye
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 11 Feb 1827
Marriage Place: Whitechapel, Middlesex, England
Spouse: Jonathan Nial
FHL Film Number: 94702



David Niel
in the 1841 England Census
Name: David Niel
Age: 6 Mo
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: HARE STREET
Occupation:
View image
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Town
Neighbors:
Piece: 694
Book: 5
Folio: 27
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Jonathan Niel 35 - weaver
Jane Niel 35
William Niel 8
Felix Niel 3 [ Feby on image ]
David Niel 6 Mo

That Phoebe married John Mallison in Bethnal Green in 1858, and is on all the later censuses until her death in 1924.

However -
that still leaves the orphan Phoebe in 1841 as a possibility .

Thank you Argy11Gran

more detail of the 1851 census phoebe
Phoebe
Last name McNeal
Year 1845
Admitted date -
Father's occupation Sailor
Family circumstances 2 children, 1 admitted, this child dependent on the mother
Number of children left 2
Town where family was from Wanstead
First entry date in annual reports 1845
Subsequent entries dates in annual reports 1846; 1847; 1848; 1850; 1851; 1852;
Order entered -
Number in list 58
Page number 21
Year range 1818-1901
Country England
County Surrey
Place Cobham
Event School
Archive
Surrey History Centre
Archive reference 3719/1/11
Dataset title Cobham, Reed's School Annual Reports 1818-1901
Record set Surrey Institutional Records 1788-1939
Category Institutions & organisations
Subcategory Schools & Education
Collections from England, Great Britain

© Surrey History Centre, Surrey County Council

Just inputting McNeil and Wanstead, Essex brings up another young girl in 1911. She is at a school whose address is Royal Merchant Seamen's Orphanage, Hermon Hill, Wanstead N E, Hermon Hill, Wanstead N E.
I wonder if Phoebe transferred from this place to Tower hamlets in 1851 and that is why Wanstead was named as her place of birth. Just a thought.

Yes, I thought that too, alviegal. If they didn't know her actual place of birth, they may just have assumed that's where she was born.

So found by googling, the Infant Orphan Asylum was for children under 7. It started off in Hackney but a new building was started in June 1841 near Wanstead Forest. Maddie's detailed posting for the 1851 census states that Phoebe was admitted in 1845 to the London Orphan Asylum which was when she was 7. Poor little mite, they had it tough back then.