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OK, so after lots of to-ing and fro-ing with SP because I couldn't open the attachments in the form they had sent them, I have at last received explanation and associated forms.

Firstly, they said that the New Cumnock registration is a link error. Correct entry located and image sent - arrived as the Linlithgow registration.

When I said it was not what I wanted the reply said there is no New Cumnock entry so the Linlithgow one was correct BUT they had noticed 2 RCE pages with the entry and these reflect changes made in later years.

If you look at the info that ArgyllGran posted on 10th May at 1646 -

The first RCE basically says -

Column 1 - Change name from Nancy Stirling Gunton or Ferrol to Nancy Stirling Ferrol and
Column 4 - substitute Elizabeth Gunton or Ferrol, Millworker
(nothing about wife of and when married)

the second RCE says -
Column 1 - new name and surname Nancy Stirling

I'll attempt to send the documents by PM so check your emails

Thanks so much for the information

Marriages Sep 1900.

**Gunton Dinah** Newcastle T. 10b 285

married Stephen Embleton.

1902
Gunton Elizabeth Hexham 10b 522.

married Andrew Ferrol.

matches info on 1921 census.

Name Nancy Ferrol
Gender
[Female]
Age 2 Months
Relation to Head Great-niece (Great Niece)
[Niece]
Orphanhood Both Parents Alive
Estimated Birth Year 1921
Birth Place Scotland
Residence Date 1921
Residence Street Address 9 Brough Building, Newcastle Upon Tyne
Residence Place Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England
Inhabited Y
Ward Byker
Parliamentary Division Newcastle Upon Tyne Pb, East Div.
Registration District Newcastle Upon Tyne
Registration District Number 558
Sub registration district Byker
Sub Registration District Number 6
Respondent S Embleton
Enumeration District Name Newcastle Upon Tyne Cb
Enumeration District 7
Schedule 405
Schedule Type Code E
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Stephen Embleton
40
Head
Dina Embleton
42
Wife
Stephen Embleton
13
Son
Benjamin Embleton
16
Son
Albert Embleton
13
Son
James Embleton
9
Son
Mary Jane Embleton
7
Daughter
Abel Embleton
1 Year 8 Months
Son
Elizabeth Ferrol
37
Sister
Nancy Ferrol 2 Months Great-niece (Great Niece)
Save.




Name Nancy Ferrol
Gender
[Female]
Age 2 Months
Relation to Head Great-niece (Great Niece)
[Niece]
Orphanhood Both Parents Alive
Estimated Birth Year 1921
Birth Place Scotland
Residence Date 1921
Residence Street Address 9 Brough Building, Newcastle Upon Tyne
Residence Place Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England
Inhabited Y
Ward Byker
Parliamentary Division Newcastle Upon Tyne Pb, East Div.
Registration District Newcastle Upon Tyne
Registration District Number 558
Sub registration district Byker
Sub Registration District Number 6
Respondent S Embleton
Enumeration District Name Newcastle Upon Tyne Cb
Enumeration District 7
Schedule 405
Schedule Type Code E
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Stephen Embleton
40
Head
Dina Embleton
42
Wife
Stephen Embleton
13
Son
Benjamin Embleton
16
Son
Albert Embleton
13
Son
James Embleton
9
Son
Mary Jane Embleton
7
Daughter
Abel Embleton
1 Year 8 Months
Son
Elizabeth Ferrol
37
Sister
Nancy Ferrol 2 Months Great-niece (Great Niece)
Save.



Nancy
Ferrol
1921
>> Birth Place--- Linlithgow -Scotland.<<

Newcastle upon Tyne
Newcastle upon Tyne
Northumberland

Haven't forgotten about the other certificate, will chase on Monday.

I've used credits to look at Nancy's birth cert (the Linlithgow one).

Nancy Stirling Gunton or Ferrol, born at 12.30am, on 27 April 1921, at 24 Low Port, Linlithgow.

Father not named - which is interesting, possibly supporting my thought that Elizabeth didn't know who the child's father was. Certainly Andrew Ferrol wasn't.

Mother: "Elizabeth Gunton or Ferrol, millworker, wife of Andrew Ferrol, carter, to whom she was married on 15/2/1902 at Hexham, England."

Informant: Elizabeth G Ferrol, mother.

Registered at Linlithgow on 1 May 1921.

There's a note in the left-hand margin - or two notes, as they're in different handwriting:

RCE 39/1981/WL
RCE 46/1981/WL

RCE is Register of Corrected Entries.

As the other registration, in New Cumnock (60-plus miles away from Linlithgow) gives Nancy's surname as Stirling, I expect it 's a re-registration or correction, possibly naming William as her father.

" If you order an official copy of a statutory birth or death record with an RCE it will be supplied with any corrections or insertions applied. Digital images of statutory birth records and RCEs that you can view on this website are as the original register pages."
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/help-and-support/guides/registering-illegitimate-births

Greyghost elizabeth stirling died 1958 whitchurch bristol and william in 1960 whitchurch bristol, if I remember correctly they both died in 4 St nicholas road at home

As well as Nancy's birth being shown with surname Stirling, and mmn Gunton, in New Cumnock, it's also listed as Nancy Ferrol, with Stirling as a middle name, with no mmn shown, a different reference number, and in Linlithgow:

FERROL
NANCY STIRLING
F
1921
668 / 79
Linlithgow

In 1921, Andrew Ferrol born 1881 in Dumfries, is MARRIED

The assumption will have to be that Elizabeth took up with Stirling and started having children with him, having left behind her Ferrol offspring.

Come back to this thread Jamie when you have them (don't start another) and we'll see if there is anything more to help, but in the meantimes when and where did they die, even that may yield a clue.

I've had a reply (that was quick) from Scotland's People about the birth certificate. They sent me the correct certificate, but in a format that I can't open unfortunately.
The attachment arrived as - Saveimage (4). jfif. Have asked if they can send in any other format, but no reply as yet and their online link hasn't been updated. Will keep trying so don't waste credits on that.

Greyghost I'm ordering their death certificates and Nancy's marriage cert when I get paid in 2weeks time

Greyghost I'm ordering their death certificates and Nancy's marriage cert when I get paid in 2weeks time

I'll ask again - what details does Nancy give about her Father when she marries?

Do you know when and where William and Elizabeth Died, ? death certificate give any relevant information? Or maybe Probate record?

A few spare credits due to expire, so tried to have look at Nancy's birth certificate. Unfortunately the search result leads to the wrong page of birth certificates.

Have reported to Scotland's People and asked for return of credits and / or details of the results I wanted.

Nancy died in 2010, there is a probate record in 2011. unfortunately it says Administration only, so probably no worthwhile information there. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

If Elizabeth and William didn't marry, then her surname was officially Ferrol.

Her brother-in-law Stephen Embleton filed in the census form, correctly naming her as Ferrol - and presumably therefore just called Nancy Ferrol too.

Now some conjecture!
Perhaps Stephen wasn't prepared to acknowledge William's presence in Elizabeth's life.
Who knows - perhaps Nancy was actually Andrew's daughter. Perhaps Elizabeth didn't know whose daughter Nancy was, but had separated from Andrew before the birth was registered .
It might be interesting to know who registered the birth.

So im confused nancy was registered in Scotland births as nancy stirling mothers maiden name was gunton but this 1921 census has her as nancy ferrol. Now Nancy's sister alice was my wife's grandmother she was born 1924 alice j stirling born in hexham mother's maiden name gunton. Can anyone hazard a guess as to what is going on here

An Ancestry tree has Elizabeth's death as 28 Feb.1958 at Whitchurch, near Henstridge, Somerset.
The tree owner has commented that the certificate says 'wife of William Sterling a retired builders labourer.'

It has her leaving Andrew Ferrol in 1920

Could this be William Stirling in 1921, despite change of occupation? Nancy also in Newcastle

What details does Nancy give about her Father when she marries?


1921 Census Of England & Wales
4, Villa Place, Newcastle on Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer
William Stirling Head Male 1893 28 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland Insurance Enginer Surveyor General Accident Fire & Life Assurance Corporation Ltd
Daisy K Stirling Wife Female 1895 26 Portsmouth, Hampshire, England Home Duties -
Barbara D Stirling Daughter Female 1919 2 Portsmouth, Hampshire, England - -

EDIT - NO - still together 1939 in Co. Durham. Will leave to rule out

Elizabeth and Nancy in 1921

1921 Census Of England & Wales
9, Broughs Buildings, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer
Stephen Embleton Head Male 1881 40 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England General Worker (Hawker) Own Account
Dina Embleton Wife Female 1879 42 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England At Home -
Stephen Embleton Son Male 1908 13 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England General Worker (Hawker) Own Account
Benjamin Embleton Son Male 1905 16 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England General Worker (Hawker) Own Account
Albert Embleton Son Male 1908 13 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England - -
James Embleton Son Male 1912 9 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England - -
Mary Jane Embleton Daughter Female 1914 7 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England - -
Abel Embleton Son Male 1919 1 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England - -
Elizabeth Ferrol Sister Female 1884 37 Durham, Durham, England At Home -
Nancy Ferrol Great niece Female 1921 - Scotland - -

Nancy shows as 2 months old, born Linlithgow, Scotland, both parents alive

Elizabeth born Dipton, Durham - listed as married.

Stephen Embleton married Dinah Gunton Q3 1900 Newcastle upon Tyne

As well as the mistakes previously mentioned in FMP's transcription of William and Elizabeth's household in 1939 ,
Ancestry's transcription also has mistakes.

Nancy is on the image, but not transcribed, while Elizabeth has been transcribed twice.

Correction submitted.