Genealogy Chat

And who was her father for that matter!

Mary Read married Charles Dolby in 1870. On the marriage record she gave her father's name as John Lindsay:

Name: Charles Dolby
Spouse: Mary Read
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 2 Jan 1870
Parish: St James the Great, Bethnal Green
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Francis Dolby
Spouse Father: John Lindsay
Register Type: Parish Register

Both Ancestry & FMP have a record for Mary’s birth:

Name: Mary Read
Registration Year: 1842
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Whittlesey
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire
Volume: 14
Page: 134

But GRO does not! Or if it does then I can’t find it. This would be very useful in determining her mother’s maiden name.

In the census records I can find Mary and her sister Ann with their mother, Elizabeth (born about 1814). Elizabeth gives her married name as Read in two cases and Ashworth in one case, place of birth always Elm, Cambridgeshire, and in all cases without a husband

I can find no feasible marriage record for Elizabeth with Lindsay, Ashworth, or Read.

One possible explanation is that she did not marry, a more interesting explanation might be that they were non-conformists.

Might anyone be able to offer any ideas and insights please?

Keith

If this is them in 1861, Elizabeth is married, not widowed, and she is a hog dealer's wife.


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Coates, Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Elizabeth Ashworth Head Widow Female 47 1814 Bag Dealers Wife Elm, Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Mary Read Daughter Unmarried Female 19 1842 - Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Ann Read Daughter - Female 12 1849 Scholar Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England



1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Coates, Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Elizabeth Read Head Widow Female 36 1815 Ag Labr Elm, Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
John Read Son - Male 15 1836 Ag Labr Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
William Read Son - Male 13 1838 Ag Labr Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Maria Read Daughter - Female 9 1842 - Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Ann Read Daughter - Female 2 1849 - Cambridgeshire, England



With her father, maybe?



1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Coates, Whittlesey St Mary & St Andrew, Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
James Read Male 65 1776 Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Read Female 25 1816 Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
John Read Male 5 1836 Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
William Read Male 3 1838 Cambridgeshire, England

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Coates, Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Elizabeth Read Head Widow Female 36 1815 Ag Labr Elm, Cambridgeshire, England
John Read Son - Male 15 1836 Ag Labr Cambridgeshire, England
William Read Son - Male 13 1838 Ag Labr Cambridgeshire, England
Maria Read Daughter - Female 9 1842 - Cambridgeshire, England
Ann Read Daughter - Female 2 1849 - Cambridgeshire, England

-------------------------
If this is sister Ann's birth reg. then it would indicate the Mother was not married. Perhaps being a widow was more respectable?

??
Results:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:

READ, ANN - Order
GRO Reference: 1848 D Quarter in WHITTLESEY Volume 14 Page 135

----------------------------
Mary's Father at marriage is given as John Lindsay, so maybe she knew who he was as that name doesn't feature otherwise?

Her marriage? Surname Skeels?


England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription
Print transcription
First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Read
Name note -
Marriage year 1855
Marriage date 1855
Marriage place Coates
Spouse's first name(s) Thomas Ashworth
Spouse's last name Skeels
Residence Coates, Cambridgeshire, England
County Cambridgeshire
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973


Mary's father is described as deceased on her MC.

Wonder if this is Thomas?


1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Eastrea, Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Clark Head Married Male 48 1803 Ag Labr Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Jane Clark Wife Married Female 56 1795 - Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Thomas Ashworth Wife Son Unmarried Male 34 1817 Pig Jobber Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, England

Address on census 1841/51/61 is Coates, Whittlesey.

There is a John Lindsey in Coates in 1851 who probably married 1842 - a candidate??

and a married John Lindsay, the local Butcher

@alviegal - yes that's them in 1861, I'm pretty sure.

That marriage is interesting, what do you make of the spouse's name? It's certainly in the "right" place, Coates. But who is Skeels? Using Skeels to search I've now found it in FMP, thanks a lot for the pointer.

C1841 I interpreted as her with her father-in-law, Elizabeth Read is shown as a widow.

@greyghost - yes, it's possible that Elizabeth Read was not married and that Lindsay was the father (at least of Ann). However I have yet to find a birth / baptism record for Elizabeth Read.

But it's Mary's Father who is given as John Lindsay.

1841 doesn't show marital status - nor any relationships at all, often presumptions are made due to names and ages

@alviegal - that Thomas Ashworth looks at least possible - pig jobber being close to pig dealer perhaps. There's also another Thomas Ashworth:

First name(s) Thomas
Last name Ashworth
Relationship Lodger
Marital status Unmarried
Gender Male
Age 33
Birth year 1818
Occupation Ag Labourer
Birth place England
Birth town -
Birth town as transcribed Estrea Whittlesea
Birth county Cambridgeshire
Birth county as transcribed Cambridgeshire
House name Waldersea <<< Elm on the transcription, same as Elizabeth
Street -
Town -
Parish Elm
City -
County Cambridgeshire
Hamlet -
Parliamentary borough -
Municipal ward -
Registration district Wisbech
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 1767
Folio 356
Page 8
Record set 1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Category Census, land & surveys
Subcategory Census
Collections from Great Britain, England

So where does "Skeels" come from?

@greyghost - so you're suggesting Elizabeth Read, unmarried mother to two girls, then marrying Thomas Ashworth?

??
Just putting this up whilst looking around - a thought

Note Mother's name (Elizabeth's daughter also Mary)

Field Value
County Cambridgeshire
Place (link for place information) Elm
Church name All Saints
Register type Parish Register
Baptism date 26 Feb 1815
Person forename Elizabeth
Person sex F
Person abode Elm
Father forename James
Father surname REED
Father occupation Labourer
Mother forename Mary

Reed instead of Read, possible!
Date is about right, & place is spot on.
Where did you find the record?

A different transcription of the 1855 marriage - gives the date as 1st May. Also gives Thomas Ashworth Skeels

England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription

First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Read
Name note -
Marriage year 1855
Marriage date 01 May 1855
Marriage place Coates
Spouse's first name(s) Thomas Ashworth
Spouse's last name Skeels
County Cambridgeshire
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973

Record from

https://www.freereg.org.uk

url for that particular record https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/59a1ed9f33045b2cd0ee73aa
- then click on Row 1 for detail

Thanks, greyghost! freereg has a new format display!

So what can we make of "Skeels"? The only records for "Thomas Ashworth Skeels" all point to the same marriage.

I think that's it for me tonight, thank you very much for your help.
Tomorrow's challenge is to make some sense of "Skeels"!
Keith

There is this death 1855 for a Thomas Ashworth which would make Elizabeth a legitimate widow by 1861.

ASHWORTH, THOMAS 37 Order
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in WHITTLESEY Volume 03B Page 413

However - it can't be the one Elizabeth married on 1st May !!!! Unless - not only has the name been mistranscribed but the date too

England Deaths and Burials 1538-1991 Transcription

First name(s) Thomas
Last name Ashworth
Gender Male
Marital status -
Occupation -
Event year 1855
Birth year -
Age at death -
Burial year 1855
Burial date 08 Apr 1855
Burial place Coates, Cambridge, England
Place Coates

Death
ASHWORTH, THOMAS (37)
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in WHITTLESEY Volume 03B Page 413

Think to make things 'Skeels' a bit easier you need that 1855 Marriage Cert...

Chris :)

(or Parish cd!)

https://www.cfhs.org.uk/resultsbs.cfm?cdrefno=CD/PR/092&tag=5&sstag=1


https://www.cfhs.org.uk/index.cfm?tag=1

(has 'Super Search' now for reference)


http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?grave=285983&scrwidth=796

(that Thomas on above)

Edits (looking at 1861 image, would say 'Hog Dealers' wife?) Edits (apologies, just see ag says same earlier)


(other Daughter perhaps, see bottom!)

Cambridgeshire Marriages Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) ANN
Last name READ
Birth year 1848
Marriage year 1867
Marriage day 16
Marriage month Oct
Spouse's first name(s) JOSIAH
Spouse's last name SUTTON
Place UPWELL, CHRISTCHURCH
Groom's first name(s) Josiah
Groom's last name SUTTON
Groom's marital status bac
Groom's age of full age
Groom's occupation lab
Groom's residence otp
Groom's father's first name(s) Joseph
Groom's father's occupation farmer
Bride's first name(s) Ann
Bride's last name READ
Bride's marital status sp
Bride's age 19
Bride's occupation [blank]
Bride's residence of Upwell St Peter's
Bride's father's first name(s) Elizabeth
Bride's father's occupation singlewoman


Marriages Dec 1867 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
READ Ann Wisbeach 3b 1409
SUTTON Josiah Wisbeach 3b 1409


1871 (Find My Past)
Josiah Sutton Head (Ag Lab) - Male 25 1846 - Cambridgeshire, England (Manea)
Ann Sutton Wife - Female 22 1849 - Cambridgeshire, England
Mary Ann Sutton Daughter - Female 2 1869 - Cambridgeshire, England
John Sutton Son - Male 1 1870 - Cambridgeshire, England
Parish March
Registration district North Witchford
Archive reference RG10
Piece number 1611
Folio 28
Page 6


Birth
SUTTON, MARY ANN (READ)
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in NORTH WITCHFORD Volume 03B Page 600

(some Baptisms, Burials relating March, on FMP Cambridgeshire Records)

Thank you Chris, those records for Ann look highly probable.

I've ordered the Read - Skeels certificate, but it will take 10-14 days ...

I've also asked CFHS what they can tell me.

I've not been able to find a believable Skeels family in the census yet, nor Thomas in C1861 ...

There is a Thomas Ashworth in C1851, a confusing "wife son" to William and Jane Clark. In fact the image says "Do. Son" under the previous entry "wife" for Jane. I read this as Thomas being the wife's son but not the husband's. And there is a marriage 1842 William Clark and (maybe) Jane Read. All of which may be coincidence of course ...

(yes, wait for Cert...could get tricky otherwise!)

And not sure on Elizabeth after that 1861...(lost in the wild n' windy Fens somewhere, lol)

Chris :)

Edits

(looking round Dolby Coates Cambridgeshire on google, a few things, below came up)

http://coatesstudy.weebly.com/burials-my-ancestors.html

Deaths Sep 1877 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------
ASHWORTH Elizabeth 63 Whittlesey 3b 326